Leon MacDonald Quits
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@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
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I wonder if the AB performance during Argie test 1 was a major reason for this.
@nostrildamus said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
I wonder if the AB performance during Argie test 1 was a major reason for this.
I would suggest it was the attack in both English tests and the first Argie test (Leon's remit).
It was not working.
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Razor seems to be coming across as a "my way or the highway" type of coach. Coaches with differing views and approaches should be a good thing in a high performance environment really as they should be able to challenge each others ideas.
Not rugby, but I remember reading McCullum's book and he and Hesson had very different approaches to the game; McCullum was all out attack and risk taking, and Hesson was conservative. McCullum said this worked really well as they found a good middle ground where they would play attacking cricket, while reigning in some of the risk taking McCullum was famous for, and they were hugely successful as a result as they were always challenging each other.
I hope Razor is not just surrounding himself with 'yes men' instead of wanting to be challenged by his coaching team on what the best approach is.
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Razor seems to be coming across as a "my way or the highway" type of coach. Coaches with differing views and approaches should be a good thing in a high performance environment really as they should be able to challenge each others ideas.
Not rugby, but I remember reading McCullum's book and he and Hesson had very different approaches to the game; McCullum was all out attack and risk taking, and Hesson was conservative. McCullum said this worked really well as they found a good middle ground where they would play attacking cricket, while reigning in some of the risk taking McCullum was famous for, and they were hugely successful as a result as they were always challenging each other.
I hope Razor is not just surrounding himself with 'yes men' instead of wanting to be challenged by his coaching team on what the best approach is.
Challenging is fine, but at some point the leader needs to make a decision and everyone else needs to get on board with it. Once the decision is made, the others need to adopt it as their own.
I'm pleased they came to this decision because this is Razor's show.
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i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
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i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
@mariner4life said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?These modern rugby players are getting pretty bloody greedy.
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To be gone so quickly implies some pretty major philisophical disagreements on how the game should be played.
Seems they couldn't sort them out between themselves and that was starting to effect the team.
Is it a good decison for one of them to go? Yes as the longer it goes on it will effect the team more and more - just look at Grizz and Hart for reference.
Is it a good look for the AB's coaching group? No.
Personally I was a little surprised that Leon got the job as I simply thought there were better coach's out there. I think anyone who's watched SR this year would agree with that.
Will be interesting to see how the AB's stump up in SA, whether it lights a fire to perform or if it de-motivates the team.
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@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
I suspect it's probably more or less as Razor says - they've got fundamental differences in how they think the ABs should be playing.
Hopefully it's not Leon who's been saying things like:
This frenetic shit will never work in test rugby. If we play like this against the Boks we'll get our arses handed to us in a hat!
You've got to earn the right to go wide.
Picking three 7.5s will never work. We need to pick Hoskins!
Hoping we can get Richie the Mo back to save your sorry ass is not a sound gtame plan.
Hopefully the halftime conversation on Saturday didn't go anything like:
Razor: What have you got those fucking backs doing, Rangi?
Leon: Playing rugby!
Razor: That's it - you're fired. On your bike, son!
Right lads - back to my plan.....
OR: Theory 2 - Leon is actually Winger, in which case I can see where the philosophical differences might lie!
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i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
@mariner4life said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
Pretty sure I heard razor say in an earlier interview that he does think rugby coaching is heading the way of nfl .
Think it was that one where he is sitting in ( think it was the life saving club ) at mt maunganui
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@mariner4life said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
Pretty sure I heard razor say in an earlier interview that he does think rugby coaching is heading the way of nfl .
Think it was that one where he is sitting in ( think it was the life saving club ) at mt maunganui
@kiwiinmelb said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
Pretty sure I heard razor say in an earlier interview that he does think rugby coaching is heading the way of nfl .
Think it was that one where he is sitting in ( think it was the life saving club ) at mt maunganui
That would be an interesting take given how fluid rugby can be in comparison to the structure of NFL - especially in contested possession and transition.
It would seem to me that you'd certainly not want to coach contestable kicks if you wanted such a structured, expert coaching set up.
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obviously Razor has recognised the complete lack of ex-Waikato players in his setup and is looking to rectify.
Jonno Gibbes in with Liam Messam Cultural Ambassador would be my guess
@WillieTheWaiter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
obviously Razor has recognised the complete lack of ex-Waikato players in his setup and is looking to rectify.
Jonno Gibbes in with Liam Messam Cultural Ambassador would be my guess
Mils as Family Liaison Officer…
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@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt do their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
@Jet said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt due their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
I still genuinely wonder if they got one too many in front line coaches. I tend to think 1 for forwards , 1 for backs and a boss should help with clarity of who or what does what?
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@Jet said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt due their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
I still genuinely wonder if they got one too many in front line coaches. I tend to think 1 for forwards , 1 for backs and a boss should help with clarity of who or what does what?
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Jet said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt due their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
I still genuinely wonder if they got one too many in front line coaches. I tend to think 1 for forwards , 1 for backs and a boss should help with clarity of who or what does what?
Leon was Blues HC for a couple of years. So maybe he was too much of an alpha as a result
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My guess is that the position of Scott Hansen might have been an issue.
I suspect Leon would have expected to report directly to Raz, but SH come over in interviews as his right hand man.
An issue since biblical times!
@pakman well Scott Hansen has a coaching CV a lot more impressive than Rangi.
Hansen was a very important member of Japan's coaching staff during the 2019 World Cup, Hansen did not coach with Japan in 2023 and it really showed. By all accounts Hansen was hugely influential as an analyst of opposition & his game-planning for Japan 2019 and the Crusaders under Razor.
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@pakman well Scott Hansen has a coaching CV a lot more impressive than Rangi.
Hansen was a very important member of Japan's coaching staff during the 2019 World Cup, Hansen did not coach with Japan in 2023 and it really showed. By all accounts Hansen was hugely influential as an analyst of opposition & his game-planning for Japan 2019 and the Crusaders under Razor.
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@pakman well Scott Hansen has a coaching CV a lot more impressive than Rangi.
Hansen was a very important member of Japan's coaching staff during the 2019 World Cup, Hansen did not coach with Japan in 2023 and it really showed. By all accounts Hansen was hugely influential as an analyst of opposition & his game-planning for Japan 2019 and the Crusaders under Razor.
Yep good smart coach is Scott.
He had a big influence on those Crusaders play off wins. -
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
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i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
@mariner4life said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
Also, "attack coach" is so incredibly broad - does that mean he also has input into attacking scrums and lineouts? An "attack coach" in the broadest sense could end up duplicating a lot of what the head coach is supposed to do - and perhaps that was part of the problem.
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@pakman well Scott Hansen has a coaching CV a lot more impressive than Rangi.
Hansen was a very important member of Japan's coaching staff during the 2019 World Cup, Hansen did not coach with Japan in 2023 and it really showed. By all accounts Hansen was hugely influential as an analyst of opposition & his game-planning for Japan 2019 and the Crusaders under Razor.
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@pakman well Scott Hansen has a coaching CV a lot more impressive than Rangi.
Hansen was a very important member of Japan's coaching staff during the 2019 World Cup, Hansen did not coach with Japan in 2023 and it really showed. By all accounts Hansen was hugely influential as an analyst of opposition & his game-planning for Japan 2019 and the Crusaders under Razor.
Scotty and Rangi bring very different attributes to the table. Rangi has been a head coach whereas Scotty has been an assistant or in technical support role. Just different characters that have had different experiences, levels of pressure etc.
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@Landers92 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Anyone remember a few weeks ago what I was saying about this Leon McDonald situation? I can’t remember what thread it was in, maybe AB’s 2024. I wasn’t just saying stuff for the sake of it after all…
Pre or post Poms?
@pakman said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Landers92 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Anyone remember a few weeks ago what I was saying about this Leon McDonald situation? I can’t remember what thread it was in, maybe AB’s 2024. I wasn’t just saying stuff for the sake of it after all…
Pre or post Poms?
Throughout camp and during England series.
