All Blacks 2024
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@His-Bobness as you’ve pointed out - they’re building handy leads against what are the best teams in the world, which is surely a positive. So rather than having a go at Razor because you don’t like his style or what he stands for, what do you think are the reasons they’re falling away later in games? The coaching team control tactics and when the bench is introduced etc, but Razor’s not actually out there playing the game.
He picked the coaches and then the players, but it’s not his fault?
No, my question was… if we’re able to run up points seemingly at will against the world’s best teams at the start of games (objectively a good thing, right?)… what factors are causing such a contrasting and catastrophic fall off in in performance in the final quarter, in particular?
Teams adjust at half time, even better teams can adjust on the fly. This seasons AB’s for example, it seems we can not adjust around the 50th/60th min when our opponents clearly have the upper hand on us due to a change in tactics/systems at half time. It speaks to our leadership as well as our coaching. Both are at play here. It starts up top and coaching needs to be better, I’m sure if the coaches were asked they would agree with that(even if they didn’t, they know it’s true).
So it’s coaching and leadership? And the two yellow cards we got, for example, are a direct result of both of those factors?
FWIW I’m not trying to split hairs here. I’m genuinely trying to break down where we are failing, the root of which seems to be endemic.
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@His-Bobness as you’ve pointed out - they’re building handy leads against what are the best teams in the world, which is surely a positive. So rather than having a go at Razor because you don’t like his style or what he stands for, what do you think are the reasons they’re falling away later in games? The coaching team control tactics and when the bench is introduced etc, but Razor’s not actually out there playing the game.
He picked the coaches and then the players, but it’s not his fault?
No, my question was… if we’re able to run up points seemingly at will against the world’s best teams at the start of games (objectively a good thing, right?)… what factors are causing such a contrasting and catastrophic fall off in in performance in the final quarter, in particular?
Teams adjust at half time, even better teams can adjust on the fly. This seasons AB’s for example, it seems we can not adjust around the 50th/60th min when our opponents clearly have the upper hand on us due to a change in tactics/systems at half time. It speaks to our leadership as well as our coaching. Both are at play here. It starts up top and coaching needs to be better, I’m sure if the coaches were asked they would agree with that(even if they didn’t, they know it’s true).
So it’s coaching and leadership? And the two yellow cards we got, for example, are a direct result of both of those factors?
FWIW I’m not trying to split hairs here. I’m genuinely trying to break down where we are failing, the root of which seems to be endemic.
You asked what factors are causing such a contrasting and catastrophic fall off in performance in the final quarter in particular. I believe what I stated above are 2 of the main factors. It’s a learning curve for the coaches and the team, I believe we will improve but I'm
not going to pretend that it’s good enough because it isn’t. EOYT is our true time to judge where this coaching staff and team is at. Here’s hoping we see solid improvement. -
Playing stock wise I'm not that disheartened.
Our tight 5 is pretty handy. Barrett is probably the only one down on form, but he hasn't been bad, and Aumua has struggled. But our prop rotation is good, Vaa'i has emerged, Darry looks serviceable (but not in 10 minute bursts)
Loosies are a concern. Sititi played well again, but I've seen too many guys go well in a 6 shirt against Australia and then never go on with it to be too excited. Savea is struggling but he's a proven performer who is down on form and looking for his role in this set up. Cane was bloody good last game and bloody average this week. Dalton is obviously not rated. Blackadder and Jacobson are serviceable and won't lose us games. Not world beating but not bad (ok personally I'm disappointed but this is the one area I want us to be great)
Ratima looks a find at 9
DMac is copping a heap of shit but he did so much right yesterday, but he'll also do 2-3 things really wrong every game. I will say he is touching the ball a LOT in this pattern.
JB and Rieko is not a bad midfield. ALB is usually significantly better than he was
Jordan continues to be a danger with the ball, and Clark has really emerged this year as a very dangerous player.
It's not all amazing, but it's pretty fucking good.
I do have serious issues with the coaching, as the same shit happening over and over again is a symptom of the team set up.
Perhaps 2024 is thr building block year and we are on the path to something new and different, and there are growing pains to endure?
Be nice to know about that -
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@His-Bobness as you’ve pointed out - they’re building handy leads against what are the best teams in the world, which is surely a positive. So rather than having a go at Razor because you don’t like his style or what he stands for, what do you think are the reasons they’re falling away later in games? The coaching team control tactics and when the bench is introduced etc, but Razor’s not actually out there playing the game.
He picked the coaches and then the players, but it’s not his fault?
No, my question was… if were able to run up points seemingly at will against the world’s best teams at the start of games (objectively a good thing, right?)… what factors are causing such a contrasting and catastrophic fall off in in performance in the final quarter, in particular?
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@His-Bobness as you’ve pointed out - they’re building handy leads against what are the best teams in the world, which is surely a positive. So rather than having a go at Razor because you don’t like his style or what he stands for, what do you think are the reasons they’re falling away later in games? The coaching team control tactics and when the bench is introduced etc, but Razor’s not actually out there playing the game.
He picked the coaches and then the players, but it’s not his fault?
No, my question was… if were able to run up points seemingly at will against the world’s best teams at the start of games (objectively a good thing, right?)… what factors are causing such a contrasting and catastrophic fall off in in performance in the final quarter, in particular?
The coach's selection and use of the bench?
I'm being slightly facetious, but the buck stops with him and we're eight games into the season and these issues aren't being resolved.
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Playing stock wise I'm not that disheartened.
Our tight 5 is pretty handy. Barrett is probably the only one down on form, but he hasn't been bad, and Aumua has struggled. But our prop rotation is good, Vaa'i has emerged, Darry looks serviceable (but not in 10 minute bursts)
Loosies are a concern. Sititi played well again, but I've seen too many guys go well in a 6 shirt against Australia and then never go on with it to be too excited. Savea is struggling but he's a proven performer who is down on form and looking for his role in this set up. Cane was bloody good last game and bloody average this week. Dalton is obviously not rated. Blackadder and Jacobson are serviceable and won't lose us games. Not world beating but not bad (ok personally I'm disappointed but this is the one area I want us to be great)
Ratima looks a find at 9
DMac is copping a heap of shit but he did so much right yesterday, but he'll also do 2-3 things really wrong every game. I will say he is touching the ball a LOT in this pattern.
JB and Rieko is not a bad midfield. ALB is usually significantly better than he was
Jordan continues to be a danger with the ball, and Clark has really emerged this year as a very dangerous player.
It's not all amazing, but it's pretty fucking good.
I do have serious issues with the coaching, as the same shit happening over and over again is a symptom of the team set up.
Perhaps 2024 is thr building block year and we are on the path to something new and different, and there are growing pains to endure?
Be nice to know about that@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
DMac is copping a heap of shit but he did so much right yesterday, but he'll also do 2-3 things really wrong every game. I will say he is touching the ball a LOT in this pattern.
Yeah exactly my take as well - he cops a lot of flack for less than a handful of errors probably per game and I wouldn't be surprised if he had more involvements than everyone else outside him combined. How many errors do they make and still get a pass?
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I think there's quite a lot of overreacting going on at the moment.
The last 20-minute thing isn't ideal but I suspect it's less of a lack of mental fortitude and more of a 'monkey on the back'. It'll come right in one match and then likely not be an issue again.
Some of the helter-skelter stuff was a product of the match. The All Blacks were considerably tighter against South Africa but were also still able to turn it on at times. I'd say the biggest criticism at the moment is, bar the game against Fiji, they're currently largely playing to the level of their opposition (which is something the Springboks did for a number of years). I think things are trending in the right direction for NZ, their attack is looking better and better with each game and that's arguably the hardest thing to get right (though not necessarily the most important). The defence is certainly a cause for concern, mind you, but hopefully that's a strategic shift that's being worked on.
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At the end of the day, a team of talented individuals that is regularly going from the sublime to the absurd is a symptom of a poorly coached team. It reminds me of the Chiefs under Foster, or the Hurricanes of old who coined the marketing phrase "expect the unexpected " because nobody knew what fucking version of the Canes was going to show up. That's where we are at with the ABs right now.
I don't know what the story was with Schmidt exactly but NZR should have been moving mountains to get him to take the mantle. His international experience and success would have been invaluable to this group of players. I don't doubt Razor is trying hard, but he's clearly learning on the job right now.
We are in for more of the same until either Razor is replaced, or he hopefully figures out what is needed to beat the big boys in test footy. The former is looking the most likely right now, but time will tell.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
At the end of the day, a team of talented individuals that is regularly going from the sublime to the absurd is a symptom of a poorly coached team. It reminds me of the Chiefs under Foster, or the Hurricanes of old who coined the marketing phrase "expect the unexpected " because nobody knew what fucking version of the Canes was going to show up. That's where we are at with the ABs right now.
Yes we are, but the comparison isn't really valid. How many years did Foster coach the Chiefs without fixing that? It wasn't really a feature of Robertson's Crusaders, and it is still relatively early days.
The one thing Robertson has done right is keep McKenzie, Jordie, Ioane together in my opinion. You need time to build combinations. Yet every 2nd poster on here seems to want 1, 2, or all 3 of them dropped.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
At the end of the day, a team of talented individuals that is regularly going from the sublime to the absurd is a symptom of a poorly coached team. It reminds me of the Chiefs under Foster, or the Hurricanes of old who coined the marketing phrase "expect the unexpected " because nobody knew what fucking version of the Canes was going to show up. That's where we are at with the ABs right now.
Yes we are, but the comparison isn't really valid. How many years did Foster coach the Chiefs without fixing that? It wasn't really a feature of Robertson's Crusaders, and it is still relatively early days.
The one thing Robertson has done right is keep McKenzie, Jordie, Ioane together in my opinion. You need time to build combinations. Yet every 2nd poster on here seems to want 1, 2, or all 3 of them dropped.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
At the end of the day, a team of talented individuals that is regularly going from the sublime to the absurd is a symptom of a poorly coached team. It reminds me of the Chiefs under Foster, or the Hurricanes of old who coined the marketing phrase "expect the unexpected " because nobody knew what fucking version of the Canes was going to show up. That's where we are at with the ABs right now.
Yes we are, but the comparison isn't really valid. How many years did Foster coach the Chiefs without fixing that? It wasn't really a feature of Robertson's Crusaders, and it is still relatively early days.
The one thing Robertson has done right is keep McKenzie, Jordie, Ioane together in my opinion. You need time to build combinations. Yet every 2nd poster on here seems to want 1, 2, or all 3 of them dropped.
Agree with this.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
At the end of the day, a team of talented individuals that is regularly going from the sublime to the absurd is a symptom of a poorly coached team. It reminds me of the Chiefs under Foster, or the Hurricanes of old who coined the marketing phrase "expect the unexpected " because nobody knew what fucking version of the Canes was going to show up. That's where we are at with the ABs right now.
Yes we are, but the comparison isn't really valid. How many years did Foster coach the Chiefs without fixing that? It wasn't really a feature of Robertson's Crusaders, and it is still relatively early days.
The one thing Robertson has done right is keep McKenzie, Jordie, Ioane together in my opinion. You need time to build combinations. Yet every 2nd poster on here seems to want 1, 2, or all 3 of them dropped.
@reprobate may be forced to change now due to Jordie’s injury (May be long term). Will be interesting to see who they go with next…because ALB doesn’t scream elite level 12 to me. Serviceable sure, but not remotely close to a DDA or Esterhuizen (Boks), Chocobares (Arg) or Aki (Ireland)
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ALB is not a 12 - I've been repeating this all season.
Yes, he can play there at a pinch, but that should be a last resort. He's a 13 through and through.
Havili or Plummer should get a go at 12 next week.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
Havili or Plummer should get a go at 12 next week.
Is that really the best we can do? A bloke proven not to be the solution or one who finally got time at five-eighth during Super Rugby, winning the title in that position?
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Lomax and De Groot have the lowest metres per carry out of all props who have played meaningful minutes in the RC. Newell is pretty hopeless in this facet too.
They're great scrummagers and decent cleaners but they're hopeless with ball in hand. Early on in his career it seemed like this was a strong facet of Lomax but it ain't any more.
Of the starting tight five there isn't a single strong close in runner that can get the tight forwards going up the middle. Taylor makes most of his metres wider.
Metres per carry:
5.5 Tosi
3.6 Taylor
1.9 Darry
1.7 Tuipulotu
1.6 Tu'ungafasi
1.5 Vaa'i
1.3 Williams
1 Barrett
1 Aumua
0.7 Newell
0.5 De Groot
0.4 LomaxUnsurprisingly the 3 Blues tight forwards are strong in this facet but they are clearly out of favour.
There's a lack of variety in our game which makes us predictable. We went more up the middle against the Puma's at Eden Park and that was probably our best game of the year.
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hasn't lomax on more than one occasion this year done some very sexy ball in hand stuff to set up tries and linebreaks?
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hasn't lomax on more than one occasion this year done some very sexy ball in hand stuff to set up tries and linebreaks?
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
hasn't lomax on more than one occasion this year done some very sexy ball in hand stuff to set up tries and linebreaks?
Some might say his dummies and passing in the midfield have been better than Barrett and Ioane's.
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hasn't lomax on more than one occasion this year done some very sexy ball in hand stuff to set up tries and linebreaks?
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
hasn't lomax on more than one occasion this year done some very sexy ball in hand stuff to set up tries and linebreaks?
Yes he has, great hands for a prop. Also frequently one of our top tacklers. He's developing into a real gun.
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ALB is not a 12 - I've been repeating this all season.
Yes, he can play there at a pinch, but that should be a last resort. He's a 13 through and through.
Havili or Plummer should get a go at 12 next week.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
ALB is not a 12 - I've been repeating this all season.
Yes, he can play there at a pinch, but that should be a last resort. He's a 13 through and through.
Havili or Plummer should get a go at 12 next week.
ALB's best performance this season came at 12 vs Fiji
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hasn't lomax on more than one occasion this year done some very sexy ball in hand stuff to set up tries and linebreaks?
He certainly has set up a try for the other team. I'd rather see a prop who can get well over the advantage line.
Ball playing props are overrated
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Lomax and De Groot have the lowest metres per carry out of all props who have played meaningful minutes in the RC. Newell is pretty hopeless in this facet too.
They're great scrummagers and decent cleaners but they're hopeless with ball in hand. Early on in his career it seemed like this was a strong facet of Lomax but it ain't any more.
Of the starting tight five there isn't a single strong close in runner that can get the tight forwards going up the middle. Taylor makes most of his metres wider.
Metres per carry:
5.5 Tosi
3.6 Taylor
1.9 Darry
1.7 Tuipulotu
1.6 Tu'ungafasi
1.5 Vaa'i
1.3 Williams
1 Barrett
1 Aumua
0.7 Newell
0.5 De Groot
0.4 LomaxUnsurprisingly the 3 Blues tight forwards are strong in this facet but they are clearly out of favour.
There's a lack of variety in our game which makes us predictable. We went more up the middle against the Puma's at Eden Park and that was probably our best game of the year.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Lomax and De Groot have the lowest metres per carry out of all props who have played meaningful minutes in the RC. Newell is pretty hopeless in this facet too.
They're great scrummagers and decent cleaners but they're hopeless with ball in hand. Early on in his career it seemed like this was a strong facet of Lomax but it ain't any more.
Of the starting tight five there isn't a single strong close in runner that can get the tight forwards going up the middle. Taylor makes most of his metres wider.
Metres per carry:
5.5 Tosi
3.6 Taylor
1.9 Darry
1.7 Tuipulotu
1.6 Tu'ungafasi
1.5 Vaa'i
1.3 Williams
1 Barrett
1 Aumua
0.7 Newell
0.5 De Groot
0.4 LomaxUnsurprisingly the 3 Blues tight forwards are strong in this facet but they are clearly out of favour.
There's a lack of variety in our game which makes us predictable. We went more up the middle against the Puma's at Eden Park and that was probably our best game of the year.
If you think the All Blacks problems lie in the tight five, I can't help you.
Think there is probably something also to be said for the fact that de Groot and Lomax's minutes come in the first half, where in theory the game is less open... and these stats are incredibly volatile, because one 15m run where a player gets put in a hole could affect this by up to a metre.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Lomax and De Groot have the lowest metres per carry out of all props who have played meaningful minutes in the RC. Newell is pretty hopeless in this facet too.
They're great scrummagers and decent cleaners but they're hopeless with ball in hand. Early on in his career it seemed like this was a strong facet of Lomax but it ain't any more.
Of the starting tight five there isn't a single strong close in runner that can get the tight forwards going up the middle. Taylor makes most of his metres wider.
Metres per carry:
5.5 Tosi
3.6 Taylor
1.9 Darry
1.7 Tuipulotu
1.6 Tu'ungafasi
1.5 Vaa'i
1.3 Williams
1 Barrett
1 Aumua
0.7 Newell
0.5 De Groot
0.4 LomaxUnsurprisingly the 3 Blues tight forwards are strong in this facet but they are clearly out of favour.
There's a lack of variety in our game which makes us predictable. We went more up the middle against the Puma's at Eden Park and that was probably our best game of the year.
If you think the All Blacks problems lie in the tight five, I can't help you.
Think there is probably something also to be said for the fact that de Groot and Lomax's minutes come in the first half, where in theory the game is less open... and these stats are incredibly volatile, because one 15m run where a player gets put in a hole could affect this by up to a metre.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Lomax and De Groot have the lowest metres per carry out of all props who have played meaningful minutes in the RC. Newell is pretty hopeless in this facet too.
They're great scrummagers and decent cleaners but they're hopeless with ball in hand. Early on in his career it seemed like this was a strong facet of Lomax but it ain't any more.
Of the starting tight five there isn't a single strong close in runner that can get the tight forwards going up the middle. Taylor makes most of his metres wider.
Metres per carry:
5.5 Tosi
3.6 Taylor
1.9 Darry
1.7 Tuipulotu
1.6 Tu'ungafasi
1.5 Vaa'i
1.3 Williams
1 Barrett
1 Aumua
0.7 Newell
0.5 De Groot
0.4 LomaxUnsurprisingly the 3 Blues tight forwards are strong in this facet but they are clearly out of favour.
There's a lack of variety in our game which makes us predictable. We went more up the middle against the Puma's at Eden Park and that was probably our best game of the year.
If you think the All Blacks problems lie in the tight five, I can't help you.
Think there is probably something also to be said for the fact that de Groot and Lomax's minutes come in the first half, where in theory the game is less open... and these stats are incredibly volatile, because one 15m run where a player gets put in a hole could affect this by up to a metre.
The tight 5 is the least of our worries, some of the props coming of the bench may also not have had any or very little carries due to what has been happening in the last 20 minutes.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Lomax and De Groot have the lowest metres per carry out of all props who have played meaningful minutes in the RC. Newell is pretty hopeless in this facet too.
They're great scrummagers and decent cleaners but they're hopeless with ball in hand. Early on in his career it seemed like this was a strong facet of Lomax but it ain't any more.
Of the starting tight five there isn't a single strong close in runner that can get the tight forwards going up the middle. Taylor makes most of his metres wider.
Metres per carry:
5.5 Tosi
3.6 Taylor
1.9 Darry
1.7 Tuipulotu
1.6 Tu'ungafasi
1.5 Vaa'i
1.3 Williams
1 Barrett
1 Aumua
0.7 Newell
0.5 De Groot
0.4 LomaxUnsurprisingly the 3 Blues tight forwards are strong in this facet but they are clearly out of favour.
There's a lack of variety in our game which makes us predictable. We went more up the middle against the Puma's at Eden Park and that was probably our best game of the year.
If you think the All Blacks problems lie in the tight five, I can't help you.
Think there is probably something also to be said for the fact that de Groot and Lomax's minutes come in the first half, where in theory the game is less open... and these stats are incredibly volatile, because one 15m run where a player gets put in a hole could affect this by up to a metre.
The tight 5 is the least of our worries, some of the props coming of the bench may also not have had any or very little carries due to what has been happening in the last 20 minutes.
@Chris said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Lomax and De Groot have the lowest metres per carry out of all props who have played meaningful minutes in the RC. Newell is pretty hopeless in this facet too.
They're great scrummagers and decent cleaners but they're hopeless with ball in hand. Early on in his career it seemed like this was a strong facet of Lomax but it ain't any more.
Of the starting tight five there isn't a single strong close in runner that can get the tight forwards going up the middle. Taylor makes most of his metres wider.
Metres per carry:
5.5 Tosi
3.6 Taylor
1.9 Darry
1.7 Tuipulotu
1.6 Tu'ungafasi
1.5 Vaa'i
1.3 Williams
1 Barrett
1 Aumua
0.7 Newell
0.5 De Groot
0.4 LomaxUnsurprisingly the 3 Blues tight forwards are strong in this facet but they are clearly out of favour.
There's a lack of variety in our game which makes us predictable. We went more up the middle against the Puma's at Eden Park and that was probably our best game of the year.
If you think the All Blacks problems lie in the tight five, I can't help you.
Think there is probably something also to be said for the fact that de Groot and Lomax's minutes come in the first half, where in theory the game is less open... and these stats are incredibly volatile, because one 15m run where a player gets put in a hole could affect this by up to a metre.
The tight 5 is the least of our worries, some of the props coming of the bench may also not have had any or very little carries due to what has been happening in the last 20 minutes.
That’s the twenty where we kick away the ball, drop it, or get a player or 2 sent off right?
