All Blacks 2024
-
Whilst it looks good and gets players pumped, if Razor is looking to play a faster paced and tempo game then tackles allowing the second defender to get over the ball may be a better tactic than ‘smash em bro’
And it’s less tiring for the defenders
-
What’s the classification of a dominant tackle please?
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
What’s the classification of a dominant tackle please?
My definition of it is stopping the ball carrier behind the gain line or in their tracks, not allowing the ball carrier to walk forward in contact. @MN5 gave some good examples of that, and I'm sure you'll remember the late Jerry Collins put on an almighty dominant tackle on your countryman Colin Charvis back in 2003.
They also tend to make less tackles as opposition teams will likely steer away from the more hard hitting tacklers, hence why you see the Carlo Tizzano's, Ethan Blackadder's, Luke Jacobsen's of the world topping tackle counts.
Shannon Frizzell also made plenty of tackles (apart from the world cup final), most of them around the bootlaces as he wasn't the most dominant of tacklers despite his size.
-
Pretty much as @African-Monkey says, but Jacobson is one of the few dominant tacklers amongst the AB loose forwards. I've never thought of Papalii as a dominant tackler as most of his tackles are around knees or ankles. He is a high volume tackler.
-
Pretty much as @African-Monkey says, but Jacobson is one of the few dominant tacklers amongst the AB loose forwards. I've never thought of Papalii as a dominant tackler as most of his tackles are around knees or ankles. He is a high volume tackler.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2024:
Pretty much as @African-Monkey says, but Jacobson is one of the few dominant tacklers amongst the AB loose forwards. I've never thought of Papalii as a dominant tackler as most of his tackles are around knees or ankles. He is a high volume tackler.
I agree on Papali'i, don't agree as much on Jacobsen. He's workmanlike for me, like Papali'i, may put in the odd good shot, but falls in the high volume worker category for me.
-
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
What’s the classification of a dominant tackle please?
Google suggests it's when the ball carrier has negative post contact metres
If that's true, smashing a rampaging forward for 0 post contact metres doesn't count but putting a halfback on his arse does
-
Pretty much as @African-Monkey says, but Jacobson is one of the few dominant tacklers amongst the AB loose forwards. I've never thought of Papalii as a dominant tackler as most of his tackles are around knees or ankles. He is a high volume tackler.
-
My take on ABs players' stocks after TRC 2024:
Improved huge amounts:
Tupou Vai'i
Caleb Clarke
Wallace SititiImproved a bit:
Cortez Ratima
Codie Taylor
Tyrel Lomax
Pasilio Tosi
Tamaiti Williams
Sam DarryNo change:
George Bell
George Bower
Fletcher Newell
Patrick Tuipulotu
Josh Lord
Ethan Blackadder
Luke Jacobson
Dalton Papali'i
Noah Hotham
Beauden Barrett
Damian McKenzie
Harry Plummer
Jordie Barrett
David Havili
Rieko Ioane
Anton Lienert-Brown
Billy Proctor
Will Jordan
Ruben Love
Stephen PerofetaDecreased:
Ethan de Groot
Ofa Tu'ungafasi
Scott Barrett
Sam Cane
Ardie Savea
Sevu Reece
Mark Tele'aDown the shitter:
Asafo Aumua
Samipeni Finau
TJ PerenaraThank you for investing two minutes of your life to get angry at my opinion
-
My take on ABs players' stocks after TRC 2024:
Improved huge amounts:
Tupou Vai'i
Caleb Clarke
Wallace SititiImproved a bit:
Cortez Ratima
Codie Taylor
Tyrel Lomax
Pasilio Tosi
Tamaiti Williams
Sam DarryNo change:
George Bell
George Bower
Fletcher Newell
Patrick Tuipulotu
Josh Lord
Ethan Blackadder
Luke Jacobson
Dalton Papali'i
Noah Hotham
Beauden Barrett
Damian McKenzie
Harry Plummer
Jordie Barrett
David Havili
Rieko Ioane
Anton Lienert-Brown
Billy Proctor
Will Jordan
Ruben Love
Stephen PerofetaDecreased:
Ethan de Groot
Ofa Tu'ungafasi
Scott Barrett
Sam Cane
Ardie Savea
Sevu Reece
Mark Tele'aDown the shitter:
Asafo Aumua
Samipeni Finau
TJ PerenaraThank you for investing two minutes of your life to get angry at my opinion
-
@pakman said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Stag said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Dan54 because that’s his best position, 6 is Blackadder’s best position and he has been a stellar performer there as well, and 7 is Ardies best position.
I didn’t realise the ABs played a bunch of tests that I missed this season
Hey come on, he's played a grand total of 14 tests since his debut in 2021,half of those against tier 2 nations. I wouldn't have him there and we've gone on and on about it on here, but it wouldn't surprise me if he slots in at 7 for the 1 test that he's fit for a year. Razor loves him. I'd have Papali'i for the mean time, not because I'm his biggest fan, but I feel like he's reliable enough as a 7 without being spectacular.
Savea ain't getting moved from 8, when was the last time he actually played there? 2018? Yet people still keep going on about how he should be there, and yeah Sititi is undroppable these days.
What I think they go with.
- Sititi
- Blackadder
- Savea
Jacobsen
What I'd go with (It won't happen)
- Sititi
- Papali'i
- Savea
.
Sotutu
Clear Blues bias I could be accused for, but it would be nice to have an extra ball carrier off the bench and I feel like Sotutu could really make an impact there if given the opportunity. Papali'i would be my 7 for now, as I said earlier, he's reliable enough there. I would like to see Peter Lakai introduced at some stage, I think he could mke a real case for that 7 jersey going forward.
I’d quite like to see a game with Paps at 7, Suafoa at 6 and WS at 8.
Give it about 4 months or so...
Edit - I misread your initials, thought the last was HS
@MN5 I think most of the shade at Frizzell was due to his off field activities.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@pakman said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Stag said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Dan54 because that’s his best position, 6 is Blackadder’s best position and he has been a stellar performer there as well, and 7 is Ardies best position.
I didn’t realise the ABs played a bunch of tests that I missed this season
Hey come on, he's played a grand total of 14 tests since his debut in 2021,half of those against tier 2 nations. I wouldn't have him there and we've gone on and on about it on here, but it wouldn't surprise me if he slots in at 7 for the 1 test that he's fit for a year. Razor loves him. I'd have Papali'i for the mean time, not because I'm his biggest fan, but I feel like he's reliable enough as a 7 without being spectacular.
Savea ain't getting moved from 8, when was the last time he actually played there? 2018? Yet people still keep going on about how he should be there, and yeah Sititi is undroppable these days.
What I think they go with.
- Sititi
- Blackadder
- Savea
Jacobsen
What I'd go with (It won't happen)
- Sititi
- Papali'i
- Savea
.
Sotutu
Clear Blues bias I could be accused for, but it would be nice to have an extra ball carrier off the bench and I feel like Sotutu could really make an impact there if given the opportunity. Papali'i would be my 7 for now, as I said earlier, he's reliable enough there. I would like to see Peter Lakai introduced at some stage, I think he could mke a real case for that 7 jersey going forward.
I’d quite like to see a game with Paps at 7, Suafoa at 6 and WS at 8.
Give it about 4 months or so...
Edit - I misread your initials, thought the last was HS
@MN5 I think most of the shade at Frizzell was due to his off field activities.
Off field was part of it, but the fact he never really stood out was the issue IMO.
He played a good game in SA (was that 2022?) and the one at Mt Smart. Fairly low percentage.
-
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Horatio said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
This is a classic Bledisloe fluffer match for the ABs. An awful, awful Wallabies side to give them confidence they aren't on the wrong trajectory ahead of an EOYT.
A real team would have punished them for some of the silly mistakes they made out there.
It's the same Wallabies side that didn't entirely get humped by the Springboks, and won away against Argentina. For 120 minutes we owned the Springboks. It may have just been the game they needed to answer some questions.
It's the same Wallabies side that's ranked 10th in the world. The one we came close to losing to 2 weeks ago after leading 28-7 when we went to shit in the second half
In a dead rubber with nothing to lose this was the perfect game to try new players. Instead Robertson went safety-first with players past their best, learned little and, as far as questions are concerned, answered little
Some improvement in focus overall in this game (not hard considering the nadir of 2 weeks ago) but still nowhere near as good as we were this time last year.
So a 20 point win is not an improvement? Did we go to shit? Did we score points in the last quarter? Did we blank in the second half?
As I said, there was some improvement in focus, but it's bonkers to think not going to pieces and actually scoring points in the last quarter against the 10th based side is some magical, corner-turning improvement. Less than 12 months ago we came within one point of winning the RWC and - to use your words - we owned the Springboks for 75% of the game a few weeks back. Seriously?
Your memory is really short. Fosters side got humped 35-7 and was only a freak run from CamRoi from being blanked. Also lost for the first time in a pool match and almost lost to Australia twice.
Foster's gone. Live with it and focus on this teams direction.
TBF you're making comparisons with the RWC final 12 months ago. Let's face it, that RWC run was a complete anomaly for the Foster era. Give Razor Smith, Whitelock and RM and I dare say we'd be seeing some better results.
Not buying that. We haven't struggled much at 9 since injury put Christie out of the picture and zero drop-off with Scooter and Vaai and, let's face it, Mo'unga was a pretty average AB 10. The players who've dropped away have been the likes of Telea & Savea.
Ultimately I like what Razor is trying to achieve here, but we don't have the cattle to pull it off just yet.
Moving the goalposts there. Anyone who pointed that out last year was told it wasn't a problem, we had the cattle and it was all down to the coaching team.....
That's obviously on him to plan according to the strengths of what's available, but I feel there are plenty of positive signs
Sure, there are some positive signs. Players picked in the last couple of years have stepped up, forced changes from injuries have allowed Ratima and Sititi to shine, there's a bit more fluidity in attack and the D is good. But the mental side of things has gotten worse, much worse.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Horatio said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
This is a classic Bledisloe fluffer match for the ABs. An awful, awful Wallabies side to give them confidence they aren't on the wrong trajectory ahead of an EOYT.
A real team would have punished them for some of the silly mistakes they made out there.
It's the same Wallabies side that didn't entirely get humped by the Springboks, and won away against Argentina. For 120 minutes we owned the Springboks. It may have just been the game they needed to answer some questions.
It's the same Wallabies side that's ranked 10th in the world. The one we came close to losing to 2 weeks ago after leading 28-7 when we went to shit in the second half
In a dead rubber with nothing to lose this was the perfect game to try new players. Instead Robertson went safety-first with players past their best, learned little and, as far as questions are concerned, answered little
Some improvement in focus overall in this game (not hard considering the nadir of 2 weeks ago) but still nowhere near as good as we were this time last year.
So a 20 point win is not an improvement? Did we go to shit? Did we score points in the last quarter? Did we blank in the second half?
As I said, there was some improvement in focus, but it's bonkers to think not going to pieces and actually scoring points in the last quarter against the 10th based side is some magical, corner-turning improvement. Less than 12 months ago we came within one point of winning the RWC and - to use your words - we owned the Springboks for 75% of the game a few weeks back. Seriously?
Your memory is really short. Fosters side got humped 35-7 and was only a freak run from CamRoi from being blanked. Also lost for the first time in a pool match and almost lost to Australia twice.
Foster's gone. Live with it and focus on this teams direction.
TBF you're making comparisons with the RWC final 12 months ago. Let's face it, that RWC run was a complete anomaly for the Foster era. Give Razor Smith, Whitelock and RM and I dare say we'd be seeing some better results.
Not buying that. We haven't struggled much at 9 since injury put Christie out of the picture and zero drop-off with Scooter and Vaai and, let's face it, Mo'unga was a pretty average AB 10. The players who've dropped away have been the likes of Telea & Savea.
Ultimately I like what Razor is trying to achieve here, but we don't have the cattle to pull it off just yet.
Moving the goalposts there. Anyone who pointed that out last year was told it wasn't a problem, we had the cattle and it was all down to the coaching team.....
That's obviously on him to plan according to the strengths of what's available, but I feel there are plenty of positive signs
Sure, there are some positive signs. Players picked in the last couple of years have stepped up, forced changes from injuries have allowed Ratima and Sititi to shine, there's a bit more fluidity in attack and the D is good. But the mental side of things has gotten worse, much worse.
Completely disagree. RM wasn't the 2nd coming like many here seemed to argue but I think he'd be executing this game plan much better than McKenzie. As impressive as he's sometimes been, Vaai is not Whitelock. No way that's a straight swap.
I'm not moving any goalposts. At least there is something of a plan here. Foster ball was all over the damn place. And I would definitely argue that, for this year at least, Foster had better cattle to work with.
I'm not seeing how the mental side has gotten vastly worse. Unless I missed the amazing mental fortitude of Foster's AB.
-
For me there are two types of players.
Those who have proven they can beat a top 5 team this year without Whitelock, Retallick, Smith etc.
And those who haven't.
Beat a top 5 side:
Ethan de Groot
Codie Taylor
Tyrel Lomax
Scott Barrett
Patrick Tuipulotu
Samipeni Finau
Dalton Papali'i
Ardie Savea
Finlay Christie
Damian McKenzie
Mark Tele'a
Jordie Barrett
Rieko Ioane
Sevu Reece
Stephen PerofetaAsafo Aumua
Ofa Tu'ungafasi
Fletcher Newell
Tupou Vaa'i
Luke Jacobson
Cortez Ratima
Anton Lienert-Brown
Beauden Barrett
TJ PerenaraApart from TJ who is moving on these are all keepers in my book. That team showed grit. There wasn't enough grit in those losses to the Puma's and the Boks.
Then there is promising:
Will Jordan
Caleb Clarke
Wallace Sititi
Pasilio Tosi
Tamaiti Williams
Sam Darry
Josh Lord
Noah Hotham
Billy ProctorThen there is promising but sick note so move on to someone more reliable:
Ethan Blackadder
-
I'm not convinced that Razor's game plan will bring the results we want against Ireland, France, and South Africa.
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
I'm not convinced that Razor's game plan will bring the results we want against Ireland, France, and South Africa.
Won’t be beating England at the cabbage patch either.
We don’t have any gain line muscle for the tight games.
Ireland England and France are going to be attritional with a good chance of wet weather.
This team doesn’t have the stomach for it.
We concede ground so easily.Entry into our 22 is almost a guaranteed score or yellow card these days.
-
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
I'm not convinced that Razor's game plan will bring the results we want against Ireland, France, and South Africa.
Won’t be beating England at the cabbage patch either.
We don’t have any gain line muscle for the tight games.
Ireland England and France are going to be attritional with a good chance of wet weather.
This team doesn’t have the stomach for it.
We concede ground so easily.Entry into our 22 is almost a guaranteed score or yellow card these days.
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
I'm not convinced that Razor's game plan will bring the results we want against Ireland, France, and South Africa.
Won’t be beating England at the cabbage patch either.
We don’t have any gain line muscle for the tight games.
Ireland England and France are going to be attritional with a good chance of wet weather.
This team doesn’t have the stomach for it.
We concede ground so easily.Entry into our 22 is almost a guaranteed score or yellow card these days.
The team did ok against the Springboks in South Africa. And against England in NZ in July when the weather was similar.
-
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
I'm not convinced that Razor's game plan will bring the results we want against Ireland, France, and South Africa.
Won’t be beating England at the cabbage patch either.
We don’t have any gain line muscle for the tight games.
Ireland England and France are going to be attritional with a good chance of wet weather.
This team doesn’t have the stomach for it.
We concede ground so easily.Entry into our 22 is almost a guaranteed score or yellow card these days.
The team did ok against the Springboks in South Africa. And against England in NZ in July when the weather was similar.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
I'm not convinced that Razor's game plan will bring the results we want against Ireland, France, and South Africa.
Won’t be beating England at the cabbage patch either.
We don’t have any gain line muscle for the tight games.
Ireland England and France are going to be attritional with a good chance of wet weather.
This team doesn’t have the stomach for it.
We concede ground so easily.Entry into our 22 is almost a guaranteed score or yellow card these days.
The team did ok against the Springboks in South Africa. And against England in NZ in July when the weather was similar.
These teams grow an arm and a leg at home.
England at Twickenham is never easy.
Ireland are really well coached, will be on a vendetta after the RWC and it will be a raucous Friday night in Dublin.
France have olympic gold and European Cup winning Dupont.I personally think we lose all 3 games, as if England turn us over I feel the heads will drop for the subsequent 2 games.
-
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
I'm not convinced that Razor's game plan will bring the results we want against Ireland, France, and South Africa.
Won’t be beating England at the cabbage patch either.
We don’t have any gain line muscle for the tight games.
Ireland England and France are going to be attritional with a good chance of wet weather.
This team doesn’t have the stomach for it.
We concede ground so easily.Entry into our 22 is almost a guaranteed score or yellow card these days.
The team did ok against the Springboks in South Africa. And against England in NZ in July when the weather was similar.
These teams grow an arm and a leg at home.
England at Twickenham is never easy.
Ireland are really well coached, will be on a vendetta after the RWC and it will be a raucous Friday night in Dublin.
France have olympic gold and European Cup winning Dupont.I personally think we lose all 3 games, as if England turn us over I feel the heads will drop for the subsequent 2 games.
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@Jet said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
I'm not convinced that Razor's game plan will bring the results we want against Ireland, France, and South Africa.
Won’t be beating England at the cabbage patch either.
We don’t have any gain line muscle for the tight games.
Ireland England and France are going to be attritional with a good chance of wet weather.
This team doesn’t have the stomach for it.
We concede ground so easily.Entry into our 22 is almost a guaranteed score or yellow card these days.
The team did ok against the Springboks in South Africa. And against England in NZ in July when the weather was similar.
These teams grow an arm and a leg at home.
England at Twickenham is never easy.
Ireland are really well coached, will be on a vendetta after the RWC and it will be a raucous Friday night in Dublin.
France have olympic gold and European Cup winning Dupont.I personally think we lose all 3 games, as if England turn us over I feel the heads will drop for the subsequent 2 games.
I agree all three teams with difficult and England will be tougher at home than they were in NZ, but to suggest that the All Blacks can't match them for physicality when they basically did exactly that against the Springboks on back to back occasions a few weeks ago seems silly
-
For me there are two types of players.
Those who have proven they can beat a top 5 team this year without Whitelock, Retallick, Smith etc.
And those who haven't.
Beat a top 5 side:
Ethan de Groot
Codie Taylor
Tyrel Lomax
Scott Barrett
Patrick Tuipulotu
Samipeni Finau
Dalton Papali'i
Ardie Savea
Finlay Christie
Damian McKenzie
Mark Tele'a
Jordie Barrett
Rieko Ioane
Sevu Reece
Stephen PerofetaAsafo Aumua
Ofa Tu'ungafasi
Fletcher Newell
Tupou Vaa'i
Luke Jacobson
Cortez Ratima
Anton Lienert-Brown
Beauden Barrett
TJ PerenaraApart from TJ who is moving on these are all keepers in my book. That team showed grit. There wasn't enough grit in those losses to the Puma's and the Boks.
Then there is promising:
Will Jordan
Caleb Clarke
Wallace Sititi
Pasilio Tosi
Tamaiti Williams
Sam Darry
Josh Lord
Noah Hotham
Billy ProctorThen there is promising but sick note so move on to someone more reliable:
Ethan Blackadder
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
For me there are two types of players.
Those who have proven they can beat a top 5 team this year without Whitelock, Retallick, Smith etc.
And those who haven't.
Beat a top 5 side:
Ethan de Groot
Codie Taylor
Tyrel Lomax
Scott Barrett
Patrick Tuipulotu
Samipeni Finau
Dalton Papali'i
Ardie Savea
Finlay Christie
Damian McKenzie
Mark Tele'a
Jordie Barrett
Rieko Ioane
Sevu Reece
Stephen PerofetaAsafo Aumua
Ofa Tu'ungafasi
Fletcher Newell
Tupou Vaa'i
Luke Jacobson
Cortez Ratima
Anton Lienert-Brown
Beauden Barrett
TJ PerenaraApart from TJ who is moving on these are all keepers in my book. That team showed grit. There wasn't enough grit in those losses to the Puma's and the Boks.
Then there is promising:
Will Jordan
Caleb Clarke
Wallace Sititi
Pasilio Tosi
Tamaiti Williams
Sam Darry
Josh Lord
Noah Hotham
Billy ProctorThen there is promising but sick note so move on to someone more reliable:
Ethan Blackadder
How is Will Jordan only promising?....I do not understand the hate this bloke gets.
He is on course to be the top try scoring Allblack of all time.......while playing in a less than vintage bunch.
Imagine the amount tries he would have scored outside Carter, Nonu and Conrad, and with their pack giving him quick ball.
He has shown in both Bledisloes everything Barrett has not given us for 5 years.
-
Jordan is promising as a test fullback. He didn't look great there initially earlier in the year and we haven't beaten a top 5 team with him at fullback.
He's also had some average games against the top teams on the wing. He can be a bit, dear I say it, mercurial.
If he were from Auckland people would call him a flat track bully.
-
Jordan is promising as a test fullback. He didn't look great there initially earlier in the year and we haven't beaten a top 5 team with him at fullback.
He's also had some average games against the top teams on the wing. He can be a bit, dear I say it, mercurial.
If he were from Auckland people would call him a flat track bully.
@brodean spot on.
Offensively great ball in hand.
But kicking, defense and even hard carries are not his visible strengths. That can change - Beauden Barrett was an absolute turnstile on defence when he started - but I am far from frothing over him at 15. He's a bit like Lelia Masaga - massive gifts going forward, but other weaknesses make him a brave choiced
-
@brodean spot on.
Offensively great ball in hand.
But kicking, defense and even hard carries are not his visible strengths. That can change - Beauden Barrett was an absolute turnstile on defence when he started - but I am far from frothing over him at 15. He's a bit like Lelia Masaga - massive gifts going forward, but other weaknesses make him a brave choiced
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean spot on.
Offensively great ball in hand.
But kicking, defense and even hard carries are not his visible strengths. That can change - Beauden Barrett was an absolute turnstile on defence when he started - but I am far from frothing over him at 15. He's a bit like Lelia Masaga - massive gifts going forward, but other weaknesses make him a brave choiced
Masaga, Ouch!
He's a fair bit better than him, but Jordan's positioning has been really up and down - sometimes he's absolutely nowhere and at other times he's predicted play perfectly.
I'm not convinced about his kicking game which will get more important, and his ability to look for mismatches will get less likely to be successful against the better NH sides.
With him at FB there isn't an obvious wing/FB to provide help in the backfield - although, I guess we could just throw in Fihaki and problem solved
All in all, I'm still not completely sold on him at 15 - it's not clear to me yet that our best team has him at 15, especially when the other 14s look like absolute dogshit.
