All Blacks 2024
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
Did anyone else watch the full interview with Ryan on the Aotearoa pod? Some good stuff there but also a very worrying acceptance and explaining away of test losses. I find it amazing that it has been brought up - they talk about the ABs against the Boks as if we are a development team, just accepting the two losses as ‘we had an opportunity to win both games’.
I’m very concerned about the fact that they are relying on Cane to set standards. What are the coaches and management team doing?
I agree it's concerning and I also think Cane is the wrong guy to set standards. He's been very inconsistent during the 20s
He's the link from the standards set by Mealamu, GOAT, etc. The new kids have no idea until guys from the back of the bus set the expectation.
How did it work out for us in terms of RC results?
At least half the team played with Aaron Smith, Dane Coles, Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick for years all of who had more time with Mealamu and the GOATs etc.
Those players are no longer there. Take out TJ and Sam and the median number of caps in the squad is 28. Few players there are leaders and long term members. I think it's eminently sensible to have a halfback with his experience guide two blokes who are wet behind the ears. The only other loose forward with any real time up is Ardie Savea.
Were all those players who played with them too dumb to pick up anything when they played with Whitelock etc so we still need Cane hanging around for standards? The first guy to get a red in an RWC final and a guy in recent games who's been missing more critical tackles than Sotutu ever has?
Neither TJ nor Sam have to be in the 23, but setting the tone during the week would be invaluable for what is an inexperienced squad.
And IDGAF that Sam was given a red card in the final - that's on Barnes and his bullshit inconsistent refereeing.
Barnes didn't assign the red. The TJ did and it was a red. He deserved it.
Guys like Taylor and Tuipulotu also played with those guys.
TJ can't even reliably exit the ball without getting charged down. We need players who can perform the basics reliably like complete a tackle or not get their box kicks charged down or not get offside with the ref every match
It's really not needed and hasn't brought the results we want.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
I disagree on that because currently we have good depth in props and locks the most important positions in the team. We can take on anyone and have a good chance with the right headspace attitude.
Yea but also right the game plan.
If our tight is our strength at the moment, why are we still seeking to play a wide game that exposes our slow back row, “flaky” first five, “sub-par” centre pairing, and slow back three? Why are we not playing to the areas of strength in our team? Are we too proud to use our scrum to bludgeon the opposition and win territory and points? Or are we just deluding ourselves that we still have the best talent in the world across the park?
*By “we” I’m really referring to the coaching team
It's not our strength, really. We have good props and hookers, but not great. They'll at least hold their own against anyone, but they won't bully top teams. Locks? Same deal at best. Vaai has stepped up, but Barrett is the only proven one and he's a bit on the short side.
Our points of difference vs the top teams are guys like McKenzie, Jordan, Clarke.I think an axis of Sititi - Ratima/Roigard - DMac could be a POD
Sititi- Ratima- Roigard.
Roigard the next GOAT 10.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Sititi- Ratima- Roigard.
Roigard the next GOAT 10.
Has he ever played 10?
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Barnes didn't assign the red. The TJ did and it was a red. He deserved it.
Guys like Taylor and Tuipulotu also played with those guys.
TJ can't even reliably exit the ball without getting charged down. We need players who can perform the basics reliably like complete a tackle or not get their box kicks charged down or not get offside with the ref every match
It's really not needed and hasn't brought the results we want.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Barnes didn't assign the red. The TJ did and it was a red. He deserved it.
Barnes previously adjudicated an "absorbing tackle" was only worth a yellow card. Sam's tackle on Kriel was an absorbing tackle with a late change of direction at low speed.
I'm tired of explaining this and don't consider it relevant.
Guys like Taylor and Tuipulotu also played with those guys.
Neither are halfbacks or loose forwards. One isn't captain in his own team and the other is in and out of the squad.
It's really not needed and hasn't brought the results we want.
In your opinion. I happen to think that not having them in the squad and replacing them with newbies isn't the panacea you're hoping it will be.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
Did anyone else watch the full interview with Ryan on the Aotearoa pod? Some good stuff there but also a very worrying acceptance and explaining away of test losses. I find it amazing that it has been brought up - they talk about the ABs against the Boks as if we are a development team, just accepting the two losses as ‘we had an opportunity to win both games’.
I’m very concerned about the fact that they are relying on Cane to set standards. What are the coaches and management team doing?
I agree it's concerning and I also think Cane is the wrong guy to set standards. He's been very inconsistent during the 20s
He's the link from the standards set by Mealamu, GOAT, etc. The new kids have no idea until guys from the back of the bus set the expectation.
How did it work out for us in terms of RC results?
At least half the team played with Aaron Smith, Dane Coles, Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick for years all of who had more time with Mealamu and the GOATs etc.
Those players are no longer there. Take out TJ and Sam and the median number of caps in the squad is 28. Few players there are leaders and long term members. I think it's eminently sensible to have a halfback with his experience guide two blokes who are wet behind the ears. The only other loose forward with any real time up is Ardie Savea.
Were all those players who played with them too dumb to pick up anything when they played with Whitelock etc so we still need Cane hanging around for standards? The first guy to get a red in an RWC final and a guy in recent games who's been missing more critical tackles than Sotutu ever has?
Neither TJ nor Sam have to be in the 23, but setting the tone during the week would be invaluable for what is an inexperienced squad.
And IDGAF that Sam was given a red card in the final - that's on Barnes and his bullshit inconsistent refereeing.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Neither TJ nor Sam have to be in the 23, but setting the tone during the week would be invaluable for what is an inexperienced squad.
But they will be and probably starting the big games, I reckon. I disagree with that, but that is what I think will happen
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Barnes didn't assign the red. The TJ did and it was a red. He deserved it.
Barnes previously adjudicated an "absorbing tackle" was only worth a yellow card. Sam's tackle on Kriel was an absorbing tackle with a late change of direction at low speed.
I'm tired of explaining this and don't consider it relevant.
Guys like Taylor and Tuipulotu also played with those guys.
Neither are halfbacks or loose forwards. One isn't captain in his own team and the other is in and out of the squad.
It's really not needed and hasn't brought the results we want.
In your opinion. I happen to think that not having them in the squad and replacing them with newbies isn't the panacea you're hoping it will be.
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It's not about being a solution to the immediate issue of losing against the top teams. It's about developing younger talent. Most of the young guys have been very good this year. It's a wasted development opportunity.
@brodean Your mind is going to explode when you hear of this AB XV idea.
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@brodean Your mind is going to explode when you hear of this AB XV idea.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
I disagree on that because currently we have good depth in props and locks the most important positions in the team. We can take on anyone and have a good chance with the right headspace attitude.
Yea but also right the game plan.
If our tight is our strength at the moment, why are we still seeking to play a wide game that exposes our slow back row, “flaky” first five, “sub-par” centre pairing, and slow back three? Why are we not playing to the areas of strength in our team? Are we too proud to use our scrum to bludgeon the opposition and win territory and points? Or are we just deluding ourselves that we still have the best talent in the world across the park?
*By “we” I’m really referring to the coaching team
It's not our strength, really. We have good props and hookers, but not great. They'll at least hold their own against anyone, but they won't bully top teams. Locks? Same deal at best. Vaai has stepped up, but Barrett is the only proven one and he's a bit on the short side.
Our points of difference vs the top teams are guys like McKenzie, Jordan, Clarke.I think an axis of Sititi - Ratima/Roigard - DMac could be a POD
Agree, though I'm a bit hesitant to annoint Roigard until I see him play a few games post-injury.
That's why I think it's crazy not to have Hoskins in the squad too - he can do things that other guys can't - we shouldn't turn our backs on that sort of potential in exchange for carrying extra battlers.The potential upside of trying out a guy like Hoskins far outweighs any downside. In fact there is no downside. Those who point to his earlier efforts in black as justification for non selection should remember other back rowers who matured and regained their spot in the AB squad after a few years away. Rodders springs to mind
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
I disagree on that because currently we have good depth in props and locks the most important positions in the team. We can take on anyone and have a good chance with the right headspace attitude.
Yea but also right the game plan.
If our tight is our strength at the moment, why are we still seeking to play a wide game that exposes our slow back row, “flaky” first five, “sub-par” centre pairing, and slow back three? Why are we not playing to the areas of strength in our team? Are we too proud to use our scrum to bludgeon the opposition and win territory and points? Or are we just deluding ourselves that we still have the best talent in the world across the park?
*By “we” I’m really referring to the coaching team
It's not our strength, really. We have good props and hookers, but not great. They'll at least hold their own against anyone, but they won't bully top teams. Locks? Same deal at best. Vaai has stepped up, but Barrett is the only proven one and he's a bit on the short side.
Our points of difference vs the top teams are guys like McKenzie, Jordan, Clarke.I think an axis of Sititi - Ratima/Roigard - DMac could be a POD
Agree, though I'm a bit hesitant to annoint Roigard until I see him play a few games post-injury.
That's why I think it's crazy not to have Hoskins in the squad too - he can do things that other guys can't - we shouldn't turn our backs on that sort of potential in exchange for carrying extra battlers.The potential upside of trying out a guy like Hoskins far outweighs any downside. In fact there is no downside. Those who point to his earlier efforts in black as justification for non selection should remember other back rowers who matured and regained their spot in the AB squad after a few years away. Rodders springs to mind
Kaino himself was tried earlier and discarded , then hit his straps in his late 20s
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I see more than one Nrl player vying for the All Blacks come 2027. Interestingly there doen't seem to be the same hype with Joey Manu as with RTS. The leaguey with the most pressure would have to be Sualli, who is commanding a $5 million price tag, which RA can barely afford. Roigard at 10 sounds interesting does anyone see him getting a go at 10 against Italy?
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That's why I think it's crazy not to have Hoskins in the squad too - he can do things that other guys can't - we shouldn't turn our backs on that sort of potential in exchange for carrying extra battlers
Exactly this. Meanwhile we've struggled to score points from the bench nearly all season
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That's why I think it's crazy not to have Hoskins in the squad too - he can do things that other guys can't - we shouldn't turn our backs on that sort of potential in exchange for carrying extra battlers
Exactly this. Meanwhile we've struggled to score points from the bench nearly all season
I wonder whether there is a moneyball issue here - by focusing on those skills that transfer consistently you can get stronger average results across a wide sample.
The Oakland As never won a championship and I don't even know if they won the AL under a moneyball system.
To transfer it across, focusing on speed off the ground (i.e., this rumor that Sotutu is a log) might be really useful for a Super team across a season with respect to getting your loosies involved, but when you talk about key moments in a test match, those moneyball stats become far less important as the actual highest capability of players / teams becomes more important. One key touch can make the difference in an environment where averaging one more second on the ground (comparatively) may become less of an issue.
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Sititi- Ratima- Roigard.
Roigard the next GOAT 10.
Has he ever played 10?
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Sititi- Ratima- Roigard.
Roigard the next GOAT 10.
Has he ever played 10?
A bit, but that was one of many missed hot takes on this thread.
He'd likely be very Jon Preston as a 10 and will likely never play there anyway. -
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Sititi- Ratima- Roigard.
Roigard the next GOAT 10.
Has he ever played 10?
@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
Sititi- Ratima- Roigard.
Roigard the next GOAT 10.
Has he ever played 10?
Cameron Roigard needs to actually play again and quicksmart cos the Charlie Ngatiness of some of the posting about him is getting ridiculous
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
Did anyone else watch the full interview with Ryan on the Aotearoa pod? Some good stuff there but also a very worrying acceptance and explaining away of test losses. I find it amazing that it has been brought up - they talk about the ABs against the Boks as if we are a development team, just accepting the two losses as ‘we had an opportunity to win both games’.
I’m very concerned about the fact that they are relying on Cane to set standards. What are the coaches and management team doing?
I agree it's concerning and I also think Cane is the wrong guy to set standards. He's been very inconsistent during the 20s
He's the link from the standards set by Mealamu, GOAT, etc. The new kids have no idea until guys from the back of the bus set the expectation.
How did it work out for us in terms of RC results?
At least half the team played with Aaron Smith, Dane Coles, Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick for years all of who had more time with Mealamu and the GOATs etc.
Those players are no longer there. Take out TJ and Sam and the median number of caps in the squad is 28. Few players there are leaders and long term members. I think it's eminently sensible to have a halfback with his experience guide two blokes who are wet behind the ears. The only other loose forward with any real time up is Ardie Savea.
Were all those players who played with them too dumb to pick up anything when they played with Whitelock etc so we still need Cane hanging around for standards? The first guy to get a red in an RWC final and a guy in recent games who's been missing more critical tackles than Sotutu ever has?
Neither TJ nor Sam have to be in the 23, but setting the tone during the week would be invaluable for what is an inexperienced squad.
And IDGAF that Sam was given a red card in the final - that's on Barnes and his bullshit inconsistent refereeing.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
Did anyone else watch the full interview with Ryan on the Aotearoa pod? Some good stuff there but also a very worrying acceptance and explaining away of test losses. I find it amazing that it has been brought up - they talk about the ABs against the Boks as if we are a development team, just accepting the two losses as ‘we had an opportunity to win both games’.
I’m very concerned about the fact that they are relying on Cane to set standards. What are the coaches and management team doing?
I agree it's concerning and I also think Cane is the wrong guy to set standards. He's been very inconsistent during the 20s
He's the link from the standards set by Mealamu, GOAT, etc. The new kids have no idea until guys from the back of the bus set the expectation.
How did it work out for us in terms of RC results?
At least half the team played with Aaron Smith, Dane Coles, Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick for years all of who had more time with Mealamu and the GOATs etc.
Those players are no longer there. Take out TJ and Sam and the median number of caps in the squad is 28. Few players there are leaders and long term members. I think it's eminently sensible to have a halfback with his experience guide two blokes who are wet behind the ears. The only other loose forward with any real time up is Ardie Savea.
Were all those players who played with them too dumb to pick up anything when they played with Whitelock etc so we still need Cane hanging around for standards? The first guy to get a red in an RWC final and a guy in recent games who's been missing more critical tackles than Sotutu ever has?
Neither TJ nor Sam have to be in the 23, but setting the tone during the week would be invaluable for what is an inexperienced squad.
And IDGAF that Sam was given a red card in the final - that's on Barnes and his bullshit inconsistent refereeing.
Except that TJ is a brainless idiot who should have no business teaching our young and promising halfbacks anything.
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I’m just sat back, drinking my coffee and eagerly anticipating a future when Cory Jane is the ABs head coach
@game_film said in All Blacks 2024:
I’m just sat back, drinking my coffee and eagerly anticipating a future when Cory Jane is the ABs head coach
https://giphy.com/gifs/huh-ice-cube-deadpan-xTiTnIilwuFFFpf2Cc
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Maybe you didn't get the memo but AB XV games are not tests
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Maybe you didn't get the memo but AB XV games are not tests
You think players only learn something if their fixture is afforded the imprimatur of Test? So the relative standard means nothing?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That's why I think it's crazy not to have Hoskins in the squad too - he can do things that other guys can't - we shouldn't turn our backs on that sort of potential in exchange for carrying extra battlers
Exactly this. Meanwhile we've struggled to score points from the bench nearly all season
I wonder whether there is a moneyball issue here - by focusing on those skills that transfer consistently you can get stronger average results across a wide sample.
The Oakland As never won a championship and I don't even know if they won the AL under a moneyball system.
To transfer it across, focusing on speed off the ground (i.e., this rumor that Sotutu is a log) might be really useful for a Super team across a season with respect to getting your loosies involved, but when you talk about key moments in a test match, those moneyball stats become far less important as the actual highest capability of players / teams becomes more important. One key touch can make the difference in an environment where averaging one more second on the ground (comparatively) may become less of an issue.
