All Blacks EOYT
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Oh look....
FFS
Hoskins Sotutu is on the radar of Gallagher Premiership giants Saracens and Leicester Tigers after speaking to England coach Steve Borthwick about switching his international allegiance from the All Blacks. The 2024 Super Rugby Pacific player of the year, who won the last of his 14 Test caps against England at Twickenham in November 2022, recently turned down the chance of an All Blacks recall for their autumn tour of Europe. All Blacks coach Scott Robertson is maintaining the party line that Sotutu, who also qualifies for Fiji, has a knee injury. However, it is an open secret that he has had talks with England boss Borthwick about playing for the Red Rose.@KiwiMurph Yeah, Saracens are going for him in a big way apparently.
After being so publicly spurned by Robinson, who can blame him for choosing a bucket load of cash and the opportunity play Test Rugby, rather than grinding it out as an All Blacks XV replacement.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks EOYT:
@frugby so if we put aside the two players that are obviously better than Blackadder, there hasn't been any players obviously better? That's not the strongest argument I've ever heard..
You can argue the merits of Sotutu (I won't, I'm bored of it), but Ioane just isn't obviously better. I'm not saying he isn't better, but you're missing the point of what I am getting at.
I think Sititi, Lakai and Haig could be a generational loose forward trio, who simply blow the others out the water and become undeniable. Sititi has already done this I think (at least for now) and I expect that if Lakai gets the chance on the EOYT he'll do the same.
When I argue about the ABs not having the cattle, I refer to the fact that we might be 2nd or 3rd best in the world... but what we have coming through (particularly in the forwards) is generational. The three above + Holland and Bell all started in the same U20 team, and I wouldn't bet against them all starting a test together in the next four years.
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks EOYT:
@frugby so if we put aside the two players that are obviously better than Blackadder, there hasn't been any players obviously better? That's not the strongest argument I've ever heard..
Christ, this again.
Akira is gone. You are pretty bloody unlikely to get selected if you're leaving unless you've been a fixture in the ABs.
Sotutu was the best player in Super rugby. Better than Jacobson and Dalton and Finau too. If Cane and Savea had been playing, he would have been better than them too - shoulda been selected, no argument there. But I don't think it's a stretch to say Blackadder has outperformed Jacobson, Dalton, Finau and Cane in the ABs since being selected.Blackadder actually (finally) played a game against the Blues this super season, with Sotutu and Ioane both playing. The pretty woeful Crusaders won against the champion Blues and Blackadder scored a try and made 27/27 tackles.
As for selection leeway, the ABs have had a 'don't lose your spot from injury' policy for ages - and Blackadder might be there forever based on his injury rate, so you may as well get used to it.
Without Papali'i, Sotutu wouldn't have had the season he did. The foundation of the Blues carry game close in and winning collisions, winning the breakdown, and the best defense, was built on Papali'i.
He hit the most rucks and made the most tackles of any NZ player in Super Rugby.
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Isn't it more about being the next option behind Ardie at 8, and knowing Cane was going at end of this year might mean Ardie going to 7? I don't see the victim thing so much at all.
The planet rugby beat up articles suggest that the English aspirations have indeed been real for some time. Razor has been open all along that Hoskins has been very close to selection. But has he shown the commitment to being an AB that Razor was looking for? And would he have been happy out of the 23 while world player of the year Ardie stayed at 8.
I see every motivation for him to be an AB moving forward with Ardie a 7 contender again. -
Without Papali'i, Sotutu wouldn't have had the season he did. The foundation of the Blues carry game close in and winning collisions, winning the breakdown, and the best defense, was built on Papali'i.
He hit the most rucks and made the most tackles of any NZ player in Super Rugby.
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Without Papali'i, Sotutu wouldn't have had the season he did. The foundation of the Blues carry game close in and winning collisions, winning the breakdown, and the best defense, was built on Papali'i.
He hit the most rucks and made the most tackles of any NZ player in Super Rugby.
Well fuck it. Lets go Ioane, Papalii and Sotutu then.
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Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
I think you're misremembering the SA game. Sititi missed a few tackles, which was poor, but he definitely didn't struggle with the collisions.
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Isn't it more about being the next option behind Ardie at 8, and knowing Cane was going at end of this year might mean Ardie going to 7? I don't see the victim thing so much at all.
The planet rugby beat up articles suggest that the English aspirations have indeed been real for some time. Razor has been open all along that Hoskins has been very close to selection. But has he shown the commitment to being an AB that Razor was looking for? And would he have been happy out of the 23 while world player of the year Ardie stayed at 8.
I see every motivation for him to be an AB moving forward with Ardie a 7 contender again.@ARHS said in All Blacks EOYT:
But has he shown the commitment to being an AB that Razor was looking for?
You're absolutely right. This is all on Sotutu.
Luckily he can take his lazy, shitty, one side of the ball attitude up to the NH and fail on their payroll, not ours. Really no great loss. We are awash with ball carriers in our loose forwards.
/sarc
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Isn't it more about being the next option behind Ardie at 8, and knowing Cane was going at end of this year might mean Ardie going to 7? I don't see the victim thing so much at all.
The planet rugby beat up articles suggest that the English aspirations have indeed been real for some time. Razor has been open all along that Hoskins has been very close to selection. But has he shown the commitment to being an AB that Razor was looking for? And would he have been happy out of the 23 while world player of the year Ardie stayed at 8.
I see every motivation for him to be an AB moving forward with Ardie a 7 contender again.@ARHS said in All Blacks EOYT:
And would he have been happy out of the 23 while world player of the year Ardie stayed at 8.
Here's a novel concept. Utilise the Super Rugby Player of the Year in the form of his life on our bench which has sucked for most of the season......
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Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
If being in a winning team is so important then: Caleb Ralph over Jonah Lomu, Adrian Cashmore over Cullen, Reuben Thorne over Jerry Collins, any number of dogshit halfbacks over Aaron Smith etc etc.
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
If being in a winning team is so important then: Caleb Ralph over Jonah Lomu, Adrian Cashmore over Cullen, Reuben Thorne over Jerry Collins, any number of dogshit halfbacks over Aaron Smith etc etc.
I think Sititi should be in the team but I think his appraisal should be more measured at this stage
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Sititi is an exciting talent but let's not forget that he struggled in the collisions against SA like he did in the Super Rugby final and in all those instances he was part of a losing team.
He's stood out against Australia, done OK against SA as the game developed, and failed big time against Argentina. He was a big part of that Argentina loss giving away 3 penalties in 20 minutes.
Sotutu is also a generational talent - arguably the most talented loose forward for creating tries in the last 10 years. Ultimately rugby is about scoring more tries.
I think you're misremembering the SA game. Sititi missed a few tackles, which was poor, but he definitely didn't struggle with the collisions.
I remember Sititi and our other loosies getting smashed in the collisions especially for the first quarter.
Sititi is a guy with fancy footwork who is quick off the mark, good ball skills, high involvement. He doesn't really smash people.
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Without Papali'i, Sotutu wouldn't have had the season he did. The foundation of the Blues carry game close in and winning collisions, winning the breakdown, and the best defense, was built on Papali'i.
He hit the most rucks and made the most tackles of any NZ player in Super Rugby.
@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Without Papali'i, Sotutu wouldn't have had the season he did. The foundation of the Blues carry game close in and winning collisions, winning the breakdown, and the best defense, was built on Papali'i.
He hit the most rucks and made the most tackles of any NZ player in Super Rugby.
Those stats might be true, but they're not entirely accurate.
At the end of the regular season, Dalton wasn't in the (whole Super comp) top 10 for tackles made - he (and LJ etc) played finals so moved up the list. He isn't in the top 10 for tackles / 80 min, though that list is dominated by guys who played a lot fewer minutes - with the notable exception of the clear #1 tackler, Tizzano.
Don't get me wrong, he is a tackling machine and a big part of the Blues success, but you are over-egging it a little. Hell poor old RR was a big part of the Blues success and can't even make the AB XV. -
I remember Sititi and our other loosies getting smashed in the collisions especially for the first quarter.
Sititi is a guy with fancy footwork who is quick off the mark, good ball skills, high involvement. He doesn't really smash people.
@brodean agreed on Sititi. Great little player, fast feet, acceleration and good body position enable him to make ground in traffic - he's not a bruiser.
He is being over-hyped a bit, but I think that's mostly because we've had a lack of ball carriers in the pack for so long - everyone is just a bit more suprised than they should be that all our forwards don't run like Owen Franks for a change. If we end up trotting out Sam Cane on this tour and putting Barrett on the flank too, well fuck me I'll just about lose my shit. -
The least Razor could have done was give Hoskins a game to see if he could be an asset in black because he represents a point of difference from our other loosies, especially after the year he had. If he'd played and not done well no one could argue he didn't give him his deserved shot. His attitude is foolish and wasteful.
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@brodean said in All Blacks EOYT:
Without Papali'i, Sotutu wouldn't have had the season he did. The foundation of the Blues carry game close in and winning collisions, winning the breakdown, and the best defense, was built on Papali'i.
He hit the most rucks and made the most tackles of any NZ player in Super Rugby.
Those stats might be true, but they're not entirely accurate.
At the end of the regular season, Dalton wasn't in the (whole Super comp) top 10 for tackles made - he (and LJ etc) played finals so moved up the list. He isn't in the top 10 for tackles / 80 min, though that list is dominated by guys who played a lot fewer minutes - with the notable exception of the clear #1 tackler, Tizzano.
Don't get me wrong, he is a tackling machine and a big part of the Blues success, but you are over-egging it a little. Hell poor old RR was a big part of the Blues success and can't even make the AB XV.On Papali'i I think you underestimate the importance of durability and performance for the full 80 minutes over the season. Papali'i was making key plays in the final minutes of games. Getting back to make a tackle or winning a turnover.
Papali'i was one of the few All Blacks to play over a 1000 minutes. You need cornerstone players like that to produce week in week out wins. For example he's rested against the Crusaders and the Blues lose that game.
Remember the Blues dominated possession over the course of the season winning 55% to 65% most games so it's actually very impressive that he was still the highest tackler
He was super consistent performing his role to a high level with minimal errors.
https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/the-stats-show-the-club-v-country-wounds-may-never-heal/
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If true fuck off then, sooner rather than later if you'retaking up space for a promising young loosie who could be playing NPC, and don't let the door hit you on the arse.
@booboo said in All Blacks EOYT:
If true fuck off then, sooner rather than later if you'retaking up space for a promising young loosie who could be playing NPC, and don't let the door hit you on the arse.
I mean I guess if that's how we want to treat our most talented players then sure, let's just repeatedly snub them from selection for even the wider squad despite being the stand out performers at Super, then when they have the human reaction of being disappointed and so look at all their options, just tell them to fuck off. Then at the same time a great idea would be to select other loosies that are not up to the job, get outplayed every single week by every other loose forward trio, and even select players that spend more time injured than playing. This really sounds like a recipe for success, especially down in NZ where financially we are struggling to keep all our talent at home. Fucking genius stuff, really is, won't hurt the ABs at all, we've just been on fire this season.
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Interesting situation Sotutu is in, in all fairness.
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment?
I think, whether he was available or not for this EOYT, it's fair to say that the selectors have him way down the pecking order and it's probably unlikely to change, so I could see why the English scene could be tempting for him (still not guaranteed an England spot).
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Interesting situation Sotutu is in, in all fairness.
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment?
I think, whether he was available or not for this EOYT, it's fair to say that the selectors have him way down the pecking order and it's probably unlikely to change, so I could see why the English scene could be tempting for him (still not guaranteed an England spot).
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks EOYT:
It's a gamble either way. Does he get capped by the ABs where he may not end up being part of their plans going forward, or does he chuck his eggs into the England basket, where he's basically starting from scratch in a whole new environment
Context: in NZ outside of ABs he'll be on what - $200k for Super? Mabye $300k all in?
In UK he'd be on presumably double that comfortably - with the opportunity for $$$ if he makes the English squad. Financially it's a no brainer.
