All Black Coach - Ian Foster
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@gt12 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
He coached the Saders for one season nearly twenty years ago, after which he had the Canes for years and hardly made them into a forward powerhouse.
The MABs have hardly been able to develop world class forwards either. His time is gone and if that is the best we can do we really are in the shit.
That's a bit reductive really, he turned an underperforming Canes forward pack into a competitive one with the result being the team made the finals regularly rather than not which had been the case previously.
I think it's easy to underrate what Cooper did at the Canes due to his last year there and the fact they regularly lost to a stacked Crusaders team, but he really did turn them into an actual competitive side with a chance of winning.
I think most of the key pieces were in place when he arrived (Hore, Collins, So’oialo, Masoe). Tialata and Eaton came through during his time I think, but either way that team was known for playing fast and maximizing its loose forward and back resources, not for having any real dominance in the front five at scrum, line out, or mauling.
My point is not that he was a bad coach, only that there is not that much evidence that he is, currently, a world class forwards coach who should be in the All Black set-up. The fact that we have to go back to 2002 to find the last truly dominant forward pack he was associated with speaks to that IMO.
Seriously, if Fozzie shows up with Cooper as his assistant, this board would be happy with that?
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@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Cantab79 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I'm shattered that Dave Rennie is going to be coaching the Wallabies. IMO Rennie is the best head coach NZ has produced in the pro-era, and to see him not even progress to interview stage for the vacant AB job is terrible. Apparently the Wallabies have been talking to him for months, which is annoying as we've known Steve Hansen was retiring for ages yet it seems that NZR didn't even start discussions with candidates until after the RWC. What's the point of approaching 26 candidates if all the good ones have already been snapped up?
Whats the point of approaching 26 candidates full stop
??
What's the point of not?
If they didn't there would be accusations of not going to market.
By signalling to a range of coaches that they know meet the pre-requisite if gives these coaches a heads up that the process is starting, they are assessed to have capability that is of interest and that, if they aren't going to apply directly, they could/should start talking around to see if they can fit another candidates team.
I don't get the hang up on the NZR going to market. What does it matter?
Because it's completely and utterly pointless for one.
The should have either advertised the job and let the applications come in. Or preferable approached 4-5 max. Or if they have already made up their mind (and it looks like they have) do what the Aussies did. This seems professional. NZR looks a bit amateurish. or deceitful.
I think you are trying way too hard to support your statement. There is zero evidence or actions that support that they have made up their minds beforehand so you can remove deceitful from the equation.
As for amateurish? How on earth is covering bases amateurish? If they had simply advertised how many of those 26 would have just thought 'I won't bother'. As explained by others, going directly to those that meet initial criteria lets them know directly that they have passed that first hurdle and are welcome. Conversations can start about supporting roles etc.@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Cantab79 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I'm shattered that Dave Rennie is going to be coaching the Wallabies. IMO Rennie is the best head coach NZ has produced in the pro-era, and to see him not even progress to interview stage for the vacant AB job is terrible. Apparently the Wallabies have been talking to him for months, which is annoying as we've known Steve Hansen was retiring for ages yet it seems that NZR didn't even start discussions with candidates until after the RWC. What's the point of approaching 26 candidates if all the good ones have already been snapped up?
Whats the point of approaching 26 candidates full stop
??
What's the point of not?
If they didn't there would be accusations of not going to market.
By signalling to a range of coaches that they know meet the pre-requisite if gives these coaches a heads up that the process is starting, they are assessed to have capability that is of interest and that, if they aren't going to apply directly, they could/should start talking around to see if they can fit another candidates team.
I don't get the hang up on the NZR going to market. What does it matter?
Because it's completely and utterly pointless for one.
The should have either advertised the job and let the applications come in. Or preferable approached 4-5 max. Or if they have already made up their mind (and it looks like they have) do what the Aussies did. This seems professional. NZR looks a bit amateurish. or deceitful.
I think you are trying way too hard to support your statement. There is zero evidence or actions that support that they have made up their minds beforehand so you can remove deceitful from the equation.
As for amateurish? How on earth is covering bases amateurish? If they had simply advertised how many of those 26 would have just thought 'I won't bother'. As explained by others, going directly to those that meet initial criteria lets them know directly that they have passed that first hurdle and are welcome. Conversations can start about supporting roles etc.I think the only potential criticism of the NZR is the length of time between the RWC final and the invites going out.
I don't know when the invites were sent so I can't judge, but they should have been gone first thing on the Monday after the final. If they weren't then that's a delay.
I if you ran the process pre RWC the name would have been guaranteed to leak. There'd be a massive risk of undermining Hansen and if it was Joseph, Schmidt or Gatland, I can't imagine their employers being too chuffed. Imagine Ireland prepping for a qf against us knowing that in a few weeks your coach will be backing exactly that side.
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I think most of the key pieces were in place when he arrived (Hore, Collins, So’oialo, Masoe). Tialata and Eaton came through during his time I think, but either way that team was known for playing fast and maximizing its loose forward and back resources, not for having any real dominance in the front five at scrum, line out, or mauling.
My point is not that he was a bad coach, only that there is not that much evidence that he is, currently, a world class forwards coach who should be in the All Black set-up. The fact that we have to go back to 2002 to find the last truly dominant forward pack he was associated with speaks to that IMO.
Seriously, if Fozzie shows up with Cooper as his assistant, this board would be happy with that?
@gt12 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I think most of the key pieces were in place when he arrived (Hore, Collins, So’oialo, Masoe). Tialata and Eaton came through during his time I think, but either way that team was known for playing fast and maximizing its loose forward and back resources, not for having any real dominance in the front five at scrum, line out, or mauling.
My point is not that he was a bad coach, only that there is not that much evidence that he is, currently, a world class forwards coach who should be in the All Black set-up. The fact that we have to go back to 2002 to find the last truly dominant forward pack he was associated with speaks to that IMO.
Seriously, if Fozzie shows up with Cooper as his assistant, this board would be happy with that?
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree as I still think you're underrating the work he did with that pack. They weren't dominant over say the Crusaders because they didn't have the depth, but they were much better than previously when the pack was basically just the loosies playing out of their skin and assisting the superstar backs ... which yielded one finals appearance in 7 years.
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@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Cantab79 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I'm shattered that Dave Rennie is going to be coaching the Wallabies. IMO Rennie is the best head coach NZ has produced in the pro-era, and to see him not even progress to interview stage for the vacant AB job is terrible. Apparently the Wallabies have been talking to him for months, which is annoying as we've known Steve Hansen was retiring for ages yet it seems that NZR didn't even start discussions with candidates until after the RWC. What's the point of approaching 26 candidates if all the good ones have already been snapped up?
Whats the point of approaching 26 candidates full stop
??
What's the point of not?
If they didn't there would be accusations of not going to market.
By signalling to a range of coaches that they know meet the pre-requisite if gives these coaches a heads up that the process is starting, they are assessed to have capability that is of interest and that, if they aren't going to apply directly, they could/should start talking around to see if they can fit another candidates team.
I don't get the hang up on the NZR going to market. What does it matter?
Because it's completely and utterly pointless for one.
The should have either advertised the job and let the applications come in. Or preferable approached 4-5 max. Or if they have already made up their mind (and it looks like they have) do what the Aussies did. This seems professional. NZR looks a bit amateurish. or deceitful.
I think you are trying way too hard to support your statement. There is zero evidence or actions that support that they have made up their minds beforehand so you can remove deceitful from the equation.
As for amateurish? How on earth is covering bases amateurish? If they had simply advertised how many of those 26 would have just thought 'I won't bother'. As explained by others, going directly to those that meet initial criteria lets them know directly that they have passed that first hurdle and are welcome. Conversations can start about supporting roles etc.I think the only potential criticism of the NZR is the length of time between the RWC final and the invites going out.
I don't know when the invites were sent so I can't judge, but they should have been gone first thing on the Monday after the final. If they weren't then that's a delay.
I if you ran the process pre RWC the name would have been guaranteed to leak. There'd be a massive risk of undermining Hansen and if it was Joseph, Schmidt or Gatland, I can't imagine their employers being too chuffed. Imagine Ireland prepping for a qf against us knowing that in a few weeks your coach will be backing exactly that side.
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@MajorRage said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Bones said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@MajorRage said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Bones said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@MajorRage said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I would 100% genuinely take Chieka over Foster.
Eh? What in the world is that based on? It being proven Cheika is a terrible coach?
Chiefs fans don't forget the Foster years.
Chieka isn't a bad coach. Not sure he's a great manager tho.
Based on?
Tahs - super rugby.
Wallabies - world cup final
Leinster - heineken cup, pro 14That's ignoring an immense amount of luck in the 2015 RWC and the work of previous coaches like Declan Kidney and Chris Hickey. What transformed the Tahs was a South African flanker and a bit of luck in the final.
@antipodean said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
That's ignoring an immense amount of luck in the 2015 RWC and the work of previous coaches like Declan Kidney and Chris Hickey. What transformed the Tahs was a South African flanker and a bit of luck in the final.
This is a few pages old, but I strongly disagree with this.
The Waratahs were an underperforming mess when he came in. And the transformation was stark, in terms of both style and results.
He turned plodders into stars, and extracted amazing things out of guys like Kane Douglas, TPN, Cliff Palu, Sekope Kepu.
He's unquestionably the best coach the Tahs have had in the pro era, and it's not close.
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@antipodean said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
That's ignoring an immense amount of luck in the 2015 RWC and the work of previous coaches like Declan Kidney and Chris Hickey. What transformed the Tahs was a South African flanker and a bit of luck in the final.
This is a few pages old, but I strongly disagree with this.
The Waratahs were an underperforming mess when he came in. And the transformation was stark, in terms of both style and results.
He turned plodders into stars, and extracted amazing things out of guys like Kane Douglas, TPN, Cliff Palu, Sekope Kepu.
He's unquestionably the best coach the Tahs have had in the pro era, and it's not close.
@barbarian agree. As opposed to Fosters body of work at the chiefs.
Gets way more shit on here than he deserves for his coaching, mostly because of personality or presentation, or giving too much of a shit and coming across as a sore loser. A very similar comment to the 'not analysing opposition' one was made by one of the ABs before the knockout rounds, and as far as I can tell our analysis of the poms consisted of 'well their lineout was shit when we last played them fucking ages ago, let's target that.' -
I think Cheika is perfectly suited for a long club season, where he can control the supply chain and the culture from top to tail. And also his 'no opposition analysis' tactic tends to work far better as the nature of the season means opposition teams are less tactically savvy or adaptable.
But he's just not suited to international coaching. It's too short, too intellectual, too tactical. He needs longer lead times and less intelligent opposition to thrive.
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@antipodean said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
That's ignoring an immense amount of luck in the 2015 RWC and the work of previous coaches like Declan Kidney and Chris Hickey. What transformed the Tahs was a South African flanker and a bit of luck in the final.
This is a few pages old, but I strongly disagree with this.
The Waratahs were an underperforming mess when he came in. And the transformation was stark, in terms of both style and results.
He turned plodders into stars, and extracted amazing things out of guys like Kane Douglas, TPN, Cliff Palu, Sekope Kepu.
He's unquestionably the best coach the Tahs have had in the pro era, and it's not close.
@barbarian said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@antipodean said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
That's ignoring an immense amount of luck in the 2015 RWC and the work of previous coaches like Declan Kidney and Chris Hickey. What transformed the Tahs was a South African flanker and a bit of luck in the final.
This is a few pages old, but I strongly disagree with this.
The Waratahs were an underperforming mess when he came in. And the transformation was stark, in terms of both style and results.
He turned plodders into stars, and extracted amazing things out of guys like Kane Douglas, TPN, Cliff Palu, Sekope Kepu.
He's unquestionably the best coach the Tahs have had in the pro era, and it's not close.
Hickey had a better win loss record. Those four players were already playing for the Wallabies. But I'll grant you it was a more attractive style of play and coincided with a remarkably fortuitous impact on the Crusaders.
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All of this is a smokescreen as the selection board line up our first ex-player PI coach and the forgotten man of NZ rugby
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@booboo I think the obvious flaws that the ABs have had, the frustrating ones, the lack of directness in the forwards, lack of pragmatism/tactical kicking game, "hail Mary" tactical approaches, selection issues, etc etc were also seen in the Chiefs and it scares most people that this might continue under Foster. Is it coincidence? Both Chiefs and ABs ? How much influence did Foster have?
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@booboo I think the obvious flaws that the ABs have had, the frustrating ones, the lack of directness in the forwards, lack of pragmatism/tactical kicking game, "hail Mary" tactical approaches, selection issues, etc etc were also seen in the Chiefs and it scares most people that this might continue under Foster. Is it coincidence? Both Chiefs and ABs ? How much influence did Foster have?
"might" ... so we're advocating a player rebellion?
We have our preferences. @Tim set up a new poll (not sure if it is still there) and after 13 votes it was 100% Razor. Including my vote.
But the level of worry about Foster is beyond rational.
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@gt12 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I think most of the key pieces were in place when he arrived (Hore, Collins, So’oialo, Masoe). Tialata and Eaton came through during his time I think, but either way that team was known for playing fast and maximizing its loose forward and back resources, not for having any real dominance in the front five at scrum, line out, or mauling.
My point is not that he was a bad coach, only that there is not that much evidence that he is, currently, a world class forwards coach who should be in the All Black set-up. The fact that we have to go back to 2002 to find the last truly dominant forward pack he was associated with speaks to that IMO.
Seriously, if Fozzie shows up with Cooper as his assistant, this board would be happy with that?
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree as I still think you're underrating the work he did with that pack. They weren't dominant over say the Crusaders because they didn't have the depth, but they were much better than previously when the pack was basically just the loosies playing out of their skin and assisting the superstar backs ... which yielded one finals appearance in 7 years.
I don't think the Canes were a bad side - they were consistently better than my chiefs, but I don't think that was due to Cooper or his assistants coaching the forwards to be a force.
Super rugby stats for teams only go back to 2006 (and get a bit untrustworthy at times), but for 2006-2010 (while Cooper was in charge) I don't see how the Canes forwards were really showing any reason why the head coach or assistant should be in consideration for an AB assistant gig in 2019:
2010
12th in line out success % (3rd NZ)
5th in scrums won success % (3rd NZ)
7th in rucks won % (2nd equal in NZ)
2nd for YC number (1st NZ)2009
12th in line outs (4th NZ)
5th in scrums (2nd NZ)
2nd rucks (2nd NZ)
3rd YC (1st NZ)2008
No line out data
8th equal for scrums (2nd NZ)
8th equal for rucks (5th NZ)
3rd YC (2nd NZ)2007
No line out or scrum data
3rd rucks won (2nd NZ)
2nd YC (1st NZ)2006
No line out data
8th equal for scrums (3rd equal for NZ with the other two teams)
1st for rusks (equal with all other NZ teams, data must be dodgy I guess)
5th YC (2nd in NZ) -
So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future aspirations.
NZR know they can't sell Fozzie to the public without a popular figure like Robertson in his camp.
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So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future aspirations.
NZR know they can't sell Fozzie to the public without a popular figure like Robertson in his camp.
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@rotated said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
While the RWC is a noble goal, given all but one RWCs in the professional era have had a finalist coached by someone who took over mid-cycle it is difficult to see a correlation between forward planning and success.
I'm starting to think the 4-year cycle is a complete myth. I reckon it's no more than 18 months, and even then the most important part is the last 3.
@mariner4life said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@rotated said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
While the RWC is a noble goal, given all but one RWCs in the professional era have had a finalist coached by someone who took over mid-cycle it is difficult to see a correlation between forward planning and success.
I'm starting to think the 4-year cycle is a complete myth. I reckon it's no more than 18 months, and even then the most important part is the last 3.
Ireland are proof of that ,
had a brilliant 4 year cycle then fall in a hole at the end
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So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future aspirations.
NZR know they can't sell Fozzie to the public without a popular figure like Robertson in his camp.
@Wurzel said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future aspirations.
NZR know they can't sell Fozzie to the public without a popular figure like Robertson in his camp.
Seems to me an unbalanced not quite fit combination, Looks like they are hedging their bets and that doesn't normally work one stiffles the other becoming a half arsed situation..
its almost like Foster we know isn't the man but we like him so we pair him up with the better candidate. -
@Wurzel said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future aspirations.
NZR know they can't sell Fozzie to the public without a popular figure like Robertson in his camp.
Seems to me an unbalanced not quite fit combination, Looks like they are hedging their bets and that doesn't normally work one stiffles the other becoming a half arsed situation..
its almost like Foster we know isn't the man but we like him so we pair him up with the better candidate.@Chris yeah I dont think it is ideal if NZR are trying to push them together, I thought the whole point of bringing your own team was so you are working with someone you know, trust, and obviously are on the same page. Not sure Fozzie & Robertson seem a natural fit, although I could be wrong too.
However if Fozzie & Robertson had come to an agreement themselves, without NZR interference, then that works.
Plus who else is added to the mix?
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So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future aspirations.
NZR know they can't sell Fozzie to the public without a popular figure like Robertson in his camp.
@Wurzel said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future
aspirations.Link to the good oil please.
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@Wurzel said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future
aspirations.Link to the good oil please.
@Frank not normally how good oil works around these here parts...
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@Wurzel said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future
aspirations.Link to the good oil please.
@Frank said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Wurzel said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future
aspirations.Link to the good oil please.
@Wurzel is good oil.
