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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
OK I will dial back a touch.
Scientists seem to disagree on whether earlier gains/advantages in some areas continue and how long testosterone reduction takes (if at all) to balance things out more.The only scientists I've read who disagree are social scientists.
Olympics are constantly reviewing the advice and rules based on studies.
We must have different definitions of "constant review". The Olympics had not permitted trans athletes prior to Athens and then only if they had undergone gender reassignment surgery. The rules were changed in 2015 where they set a permitted level of testosterone level in serum at below 10 nanomoles per litre for one year. A bit odd 'given that women’s testosterone levels tend to range between 0.12 and 1.79 nmol/l'
Considering that 'natural' female testosterone range is anywhere between 8 and 60 ng/dl you can see why it is difficult. That '60' woman surely has an unfair advantage over the '8' yet that's ok.
Do you understand Venn diagrams or distribution curves?
Consider this though, doctors do seem to agree that hormone therapy for men that reduces testosterone carries side effects of loss of bone density, decreased muscle mass and fatigue. Quite common side effects when treated for prostrate cancer. Again though these side effects don't happen in everyone and do so to differing degrees.
Physiologist Professor Alison Heather: "Science demonstrates that high adult levels of testosterone, as well as permanent testosterone effects on male physiology during in utero and early development, provides a performance advantage in sport and that much of this male physiology is not mitigated by the transition to a transwoman"
Carry on with the white knighting though.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility.
The strict Olympic rules also have a cox or under 23's football reserve who plays 1 minute in the pool stage getting the same accolade as the fastest 100m in the world?
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@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
It's really not Laurel's fault, though. She doesn't make the rules... She's just the visible implementation of them.
I think the rules seem badly wrong on the face of it, but also don't think she should be destroyed for it. She's just playing the game as it's defined. Kind of like maul laws in rugby, I think they're crap, but you use them until they get changed. Having a 40ish trans woman winning from nowhere is likely to be evidence the rules aren't right, but it's not Laurel's issue to deal with.
I hear you mate. It's the "up to them" principle for freedom to act anyway that's within the formal laws. My life philosophy depends on that principle.
I'd like to ask Lauren what her motivations are and how she sees her interpersonal relationships with fellow competitors. Given her obvious prowess at the sport I'd be interested to hear if she'd want to compete against men.
Sport has a socialising mechanism for blatantly lopsided contests. Generally they're discouraged and avoided.
And, while Lauren isn't to blame for the rules, she sure is benefiting a lot from them. She's not responsible for the rules but she has put herself in a position to have her character judged.
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@nzzp I agree she is just playing by the rules but the rules stink and she knows it. She knows she has an advantage. If I was competing against her I would boycott or go to another weight class. Getting a gold without opposition would be hollow. For most of us her getting one with competition will be hollow as well. She is not being destroyed for who she is but because of what she is doing. We still have an option of making a judgement of what is right or wrong, right? This problem won’t go away though. More and more trans will do this for their own egos. It is happening in the States and some states have banned trans from women’s sports at the collegiate level. Hopefully science will win out in the courts and not social science as someone mentioned.
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I'm on the fence here, partly because I know less about this than most of you, partly because I don't see a black-white solution, but would it be possible to have a trans/inter division or would that be a. too small or b. too discriminatory?
Given that some peope are actually naturally between from birth... -
A guy I follow on YT who is a weightlifter etc. He defers on the hard science to another good content creator. The bottom line appears to be the current Olympic rules on the allowed levels etc will see Hubbard competing with an advantage.
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@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@gt12 just disagree whether she is allowed to or not.
I actually think there was a missing word in my post - I don't think she should be allowed to compete, but since she is allowed to compete I wish her the best
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@nostrildamus said in Trans weight lifter:
I'm on the fence here, partly because I know less about this than most of you, partly because I don't see a black-white solution, but would it be possible to have a trans/inter division or would that be a. too small or b. too discriminatory?
Given that some peope are actually naturally between from birth...I think that is the solution, but then trans women aren't real women.
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I think its ludicrous. It's very clear there is is advantage there, and by allowing it, we destroy years of building up women's sport.
We bend over backwards to accommodate trans folk these days, and some of that is necessary. But they have to accept that they just can't have everything. Want to be respected and not discriminated against? Sure. Want to piss in both toilets? We'll think about it. Want to compete against chicks in sport when you used to be a bloke? Sorry.
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@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
It's really not Laurel's fault, though. She doesn't make the rules... She's just the visible implementation of them.
I think the rules seem badly wrong on the face of it, but also don't think she should be destroyed for it. She's just playing the game as it's defined. Kind of like maul laws in rugby, I think they're crap, but you use them until they get changed. Having a 40ish trans woman winning from nowhere is likely to be evidence the rules aren't right, but it's not Laurel's issue to deal with.
I dont really agree. She's an adult capable of making grown up decisions. She's trying to cheat female athletes out of some medals. Its pathetic, I have a bit of pity for he that she can't see how much she is stinking out the joint.
My empathy for people with non conformist gender norms doesnt go this far.
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@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
@rapido I get your perspective, but ultimately it's the rules but the athlete that are the problem. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree
I must admit to being ignorant as to Hubbard's particular case. I don't know if Laurel is an advocate or simply wants to compete in a sport Laurel loves at the highest level permissible. Hate the game, not the player type situation.
I don't like seeing people discriminated against nor denied agency. But the simple fact remains that transwomen have an unfair advantage against women. We don't permit doping so why would we permit participants who are restricted to levels other participants can only achieve by doping?
The solution as i see it is to have three categories of sport:
- Open.
- Females.
- Handicapped.
You play in the highest level you're capable of which in real terms means that Open is elite men. Can't get to that level and you don't have a disability or you're not female? Bad luck.
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@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
I don't like seeing people discriminated against nor denied agency. But the simple fact remains that transwomen have an unfair advantage against women. We don't permit doping so why would we permit participants who are restricted to levels other participants can only achieve by doping?
I agree with this, and it appears trans have an (in my lay opinion) an unfair advantage. That issue lies with the rules, not with Laurel. She was a weightlifter before changing, so still doing it. Ironically, the more success she has, the more it will provide evidence that the rules are not right.
In the spirit of due diligence, I looked up weight divisions for women and men weightlifters. Superheavey for men is 110 or so; for women it's 87kg. There are almost no women who weigh in at 110 kg ... so men with that frame who transition must have a huge advantage. Anyway, this is a super touchy subject, so I'll leave it there for now
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@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
I don't like seeing people discriminated against nor denied agency. But the simple fact remains that transwomen have an unfair advantage against women. We don't permit doping so why would we permit participants who are restricted to levels other participants can only achieve by doping?
I agree with this, and it appears trans have an (in my lay opinion) an unfair advantage. That issue lies with the rules, not with Laurel. She was a weightlifter before changing, so still doing it. Ironically, the more success she has, the more it will provide evidence that the rules are not right.
In the spirit of due diligence, I looked up weight divisions for women and men weightlifters. Superheavey for men is 110 or so; for women it's 87kg. There are almost no women who weigh in at 110 kg ... so men with that frame who transition must have a huge advantage. Anyway, this is a super touchy subject, so I'll leave it there for now
I don't think there is a single poster on this site who agrees with the Olympic committee ruling allowing her to compete.
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@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
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@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
Define experts.
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@booboo said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
Define experts.
Expert - one who opines with no basis on the Fern
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
