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@no-quarter said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@bones said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@bones said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo well I'm probably not a good person to discuss with then, as I used to work for Welly city. My boss left as Steve one day and came back as Stephanie, put it that way.
Maybe you're a good person to discuss with?
Careful, I'm a wordsmith
Sorry, you have wooshed me again.
My point being, without any irony, that your interactions with trans people are infinitely greater than mine, i.e., mine are zero, and yours are at least one, and sounds like you may have further experience, and therefore, you'd be a better person to discuss the number of people in society suffering from dysphoria, as in my experience and observation it seems extremely rare.
I admit my upbringing, career and social circle is likely to influence who I interact with.
Actual gender dysphoria is extremely rare. What is becoming more common is kids being told that if they don't adhere to very strict gender stereotypes they must be trans. Which is just an absolutely despicable thing to be telling a child.
That is beyond fucked. I genuinely feel bad for having brought two human beings into a world where that goes on.
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@no-quarter said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@bones said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@bones said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo well I'm probably not a good person to discuss with then, as I used to work for Welly city. My boss left as Steve one day and came back as Stephanie, put it that way.
Maybe you're a good person to discuss with?
Careful, I'm a wordsmith
Sorry, you have wooshed me again.
My point being, without any irony, that your interactions with trans people are infinitely greater than mine, i.e., mine are zero, and yours are at least one, and sounds like you may have further experience, and therefore, you'd be a better person to discuss the number of people in society suffering from dysphoria, as in my experience and observation it seems extremely rare.
I admit my upbringing, career and social circle is likely to influence who I interact with.
Actual gender dysphoria is extremely rare. What is becoming more common is kids being told that if they don't adhere to very strict gender stereotypes they must be trans. Which is just an absolutely despicable thing to be telling a child.
I would have thought. And I started by questioning the 1-2% mentioned in an earlier post. That's as common as 1 in every 50 people.
Unless, which I think I may have done, I completely misunderstood @MajorRage, and he was suggesting that 1-2% get upset by people opposing trans dogma rather than 1-2% being trans. (Oops)
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@booboo I know one! Just the one though. A wife and 2 kids before he (she?) realised he (she?) wanted to be a she. Lost 20kgs, now walks and talks completely differently both in mannerism and subject matter.
Pretty tough process for the wife and kids (which is not meant to imply that he/she shouldn't have transitioned, just saying it was hard for all)
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@booboo said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@majorrage said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@no-quarter this is why I find it so interesting. It’s seems the feelings of 1-2% of are greater than the safety of 50%.
Since when did physical health pale in comparison to mental.
It can't be that high a number.
Just ask yourself how many people do you know, and how many are even gay, let alone how many are trans.
Yeah, I've kind of messed up here. 1.5-2% of the population are LGBT. I've sort of just lumped them together there as those most likely to suffer mental health issues with this.
100% definitely a transphobic thing to do, I'm sure. Oops.
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@no-quarter said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@bones said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@bones said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo well I'm probably not a good person to discuss with then, as I used to work for Welly city. My boss left as Steve one day and came back as Stephanie, put it that way.
Maybe you're a good person to discuss with?
Careful, I'm a wordsmith
Sorry, you have wooshed me again.
My point being, without any irony, that your interactions with trans people are infinitely greater than mine, i.e., mine are zero, and yours are at least one, and sounds like you may have further experience, and therefore, you'd be a better person to discuss the number of people in society suffering from dysphoria, as in my experience and observation it seems extremely rare.
I admit my upbringing, career and social circle is likely to influence who I interact with.
Actual gender dysphoria is extremely rare. What is becoming more common is kids being told that if they don't adhere to very strict gender stereotypes they must be trans. Which is just an absolutely despicable thing to be telling a child.
Is it becoming more common though? And I'd be interested in what is more common .... perhaps going from 1 in 1000 kids being asked, to 1 in 500?
My kids aren't really old enough to understand this stuff, let alone have views on it. Both follow the gender stereotypes 100%. To be honest, I don't think I know anybody (either personally or at the school) who could possibly suggest they could be trans if this weren't the case. Certainly suspect if I thought Twitter was real life, I'd probably come to a different conclusion though.
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@majorrage said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@booboo said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@majorrage said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
@no-quarter this is why I find it so interesting. It’s seems the feelings of 1-2% of are greater than the safety of 50%.
Since when did physical health pale in comparison to mental.
It can't be that high a number.
Just ask yourself how many people do you know, and how many are even gay, let alone how many are trans.
Yeah, I've kind of messed up here. 1.5-2% of the population are LGBT. I've sort of just lumped them together there as those most likely to suffer mental health issues with this.
100% definitely a transphobic thing to do, I'm sure. Oops.
I've decided I'm definitely transphobic as I'm scared for those that transition .
Hate me.
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@majorrage said in Trans debate hits World Rugby:
Yeah, I've kind of messed up here. 1.5-2% of the population are LGBT.
Depends who you believe. The stats are quite, let's say, fluid:
Surveys in Western cultures find, on average, that about 93% of men and 87% of women identify as completely heterosexual, 4% of men and 10% of women as mostly heterosexual, 0.5% of men and 1% of women as evenly bisexual, 0.5% of men and 0.5% of women as mostly homosexual, and 2% of men and 0.5% of women as completely homosexual.[1] An analysis of 67 studies found that the lifetime prevalence of sex between men (regardless of orientation) was 3-5% for East Asia, 6-12% for South and South East Asia, 6-15% for Eastern Europe, and 6-20% for Latin America.[4] The International HIV/AIDS Alliance estimates a worldwide prevalence of men who have sex with men between 3 and 16%.[5]
Transphobic is a stupid word, as is homophobic really. 'phobic means an extreme or irrational fear of something. It isn't fear surely, if people don't like others that are LGBTDCY it doesn't mean that they are scared of them. I do know a few older people who are uncomfortable around the alphabet types but I certainly wouldn't call it fear. Stupid, yes.
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For those interested in the topic, particularly with Laurel Hubbard about to go and make a farce of the women's Olympic weight lifting, this is a really good place to start
Sex Is Not a Spectrum
Claims that ‘sex is a spectrum’ rely on fundamental misunderstandings about the nature of biological sex.
It is worth looking up Colin Wright and Emma Hilton on this subject - they both do a great job of explaining the issue from a scientific viewpoint and dispelling the pseudo-science surrounding it.
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@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
Good luck to her. She trains hard and has earned a spot to represent her country under the rules that stand. Who I am to deny that opportunity or wish misfortune on someone that has done that.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
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- I'm no expert, but it's obvious that she should not be competing, given that she has a range of natural advantages which haven't been appropriately factored in to the ridiculous decision to allow trans people to compete;
- But given that they've made a ridiculous decision, good luck to her, the rules as they stand say she can compete and I'm sure it is her dream to win a medal
Edit: was missing the 'not' in point 1.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
Good luck to her. She trains hard and has earned a spot to represent her country under the rules that stand. Who I am to deny that opportunity or wish misfortune on someone that has done that.
Science says the opposite actually, 35 years of the benefits of being a male (larger size, quicker reactions, more strength and endurance). Those benefits are mostly retained and it makes a mockery of woman's sport.
I feel sorry for the biological woman that have to deal with this unfairness, and if they speak up get labelled as transphobic or a TERF.
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@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
I wonder how all of those other large strong women got that way to compete. Their bodies developed differently to other women as well. Perhaps they also shouldn't be allowed to compete if they have high testosterone within the acceptable range.
Hubbard has to maintain a testosterone level lower than the lowest end of the male range. If you went to a doctor at tested at her levels you would be given treatment.
Are you saying that muscle once built won't disappear? -
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
Good luck to her. She trains hard and has earned a spot to represent her country under the rules that stand. Who I am to deny that opportunity or wish misfortune on someone that has done that.
Oh, I thought you were talking about Tracey Lambrechs. You know Tracey, she gave up weightlifting and is on record saying how her and others were silenced about raising any objections.
Tracey Lambrechs is a New Zealand weightlifter who competes in the +75 kg division. She won a bronze medal at the 2014 Commonwealth Games and a silver at the 2015 Pacific Games. She placed 13th at the 2016 Olympics. Lambrechs was born in South Africa and moved to New Zealand in 1999.
Here she is talking openly to a media, despite the social media harm she is risking. I'd call that brave. Pretty much the opposite of your " just following orders" narrative.
Females told to ‘be quiet’ on transgender issue - ex-weightlifter
Former Olympic weightlifter Tracey Lambrechs says females are being told to "be quiet" when they complain about the fairness of transgender New Zealand athlete Laurel Hubbard competing in women's competitions.
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@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
I wonder how all of those other large strong women got that way to compete. Their bodies developed differently to other women as well. Perhaps they also shouldn't be allowed to compete if they have high testosterone within the acceptable range.
Hubbard has to maintain a testosterone level lower than theowest end of the male range. If you went to a doctor at tested at her levels you would be given treatment.
Are you saying that muscle once built won't disappear?Did transitioning make Hubbard shorter? Make his bones smaller? There have studies that show a significant amount of strength is retained.
The argument to me comes down to do you value woman’s sports? Allowing biological males to compete against females is fundamentally unfair and a farce.
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OK I will dial back a touch.
Scientists seem to disagree on whether earlier gains/advantages in some areas continue and how long testosterone reduction takes (if at all) to balance things out more.
Olympics are constantly reviewing the advice and rules based on studies. Considering that 'natural' female testosterone range is anywhere between 8 and 60 ng/dl you can see why it is difficult. That '60' woman surely has an unfair advantage over the '8' yet that's ok.
Consider this though, doctors do seem to agree that hormone therapy for men that reduces testosterone carries side effects of loss of bone density, decreased muscle mass and fatigue. Quite common side effects when treated for prostrate cancer. Again though these side effects don't happen in everyone and do so to differing degrees.Carry on with the white knighting though. I very much doubt that most male opinion on this topic is due to feeling sorry for women.
I'm not super comfortable that they have worked out the rules correctly but do feel that everyone should have the opportunity to compete so those current rules are what we have.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
