World Rugby Board elections
-
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
so what's your "line". When do you say "nah champ, you made your choice?"
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
so what's your "line". When do you say "nah champ, you made your choice?"
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
-
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
so, rugby league then?
actually no, you're making up a fantasy. As you were
-
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
I'm sorry but that is a risk that every pro footy player takes. It applies to plenty of guys who don't have the benefit of being dual-qualified - so why should we should we have special rules for dual-qualified players? Would you be happy for Brad Shields to return to NZ and have a crack at the ABs now that (it seems) his English international career is over?
-
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
Then we just end up with a the farcical situation where people are changing teams from year to year, tournament to tournament. You're living in fantasy land.
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
I'm sorry but that is a risk that every pro footy player takes. It applies to plenty of guys who don't have the benefit of being dual-qualified - so why should we should we have special rules for dual-qualified players? Would you be happy for Brad Shields to return to NZ and have a crack at the ABs now that (it seems) his English international career is over?
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
I'm sorry but that is a risk that every pro footy player takes. It applies to plenty of guys who don't have the benefit of being dual-qualified - so why should we should we have special rules for dual-qualified players? Would you be happy for Brad Shields to return to NZ and have a crack at the ABs now that (it seems) his English international career is over?
Sure
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
Then we just end up with a the farcical situation where people are changing teams from year to year, tournament to tournament. You're living in fantasy land.
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
Then we just end up with a the farcical situation where people are changing teams from year to year, tournament to tournament. You're living in fantasy land.
No.
You have to qualify still. Stand down periods apply, residency qualifications have to be met. You have to actually make the country your home.
-
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
-
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Well, I think it's safe to say that 100% of the people we are talking about here would be residing and playing club footy in another country, so the residence thing is moot (at least in the case of the Islands).
-
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Hang on, you're saying that for any international team, all their players should be living in the country they represent? That would completely change the face of rugby (and decimate most teams outside SANZAR and 6N (although I'd say even Italy would be heavily affected).
-
It's a bit tough on Tongan players. Hard to play there and develop an international career. I can only think of a couple of tests played there in the last decade. Going back to tonga to start a test career might impact horribly on a players form. People need to put themselves in the shoes of the players with the passion to play the highest level they can and stop pumping the same excuses to protect the self interests of those calling the shots.
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Hang on, you're saying that for any international team, all their players should be living in the country they represent? That would completely change the face of rugby (and decimate most teams outside SANZAR and 6N (although I'd say even Italy would be heavily affected).
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Hang on, you're saying that for any international team, all their players should be living in the country they represent? That would completely change the face of rugby (and decimate most teams outside SANZAR and 6N (although I'd say even Italy would be heavily affected).
No, I didn't say that.
I said that if you're only playing club rugby abroad, then you're fine to represent whatever country you qualify for, be it birth, residence, whatever.
But if you choose to represent a country, then to them flip and play for another country, then some criteria must apply. And I think residence would be a great start.
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
-
And to be completely clear, I'm not the one trying to make it harder for guys to go back and represent the PI nations - most of you seem to be of the opinion that you "make your bed, now lie in it".
I'm putting forward the position that this seems way too harsh, and there should be some leeway.
Residency is just one way to meet somewhere in the middle.
-
And to be completely clear, I'm not the one trying to make it harder for guys to go back and represent the PI nations - most of you seem to be of the opinion that you "make your bed, now lie in it".
I'm putting forward the position that this seems way too harsh, and there should be some leeway.
Residency is just one way to meet somewhere in the middle.
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
And to be completely clear, I'm not the one trying to make it harder for guys to go back and represent the PI nations - most of you seem to be of the opinion that you "make your bed, now lie in it".
I'm putting forward the position that this seems way too harsh, and there should be some leeway.
Residency is just one way to meet somewhere in the middle.
OK, fine. What about the other way around? Are you happy for the Bunce, Ieremia, Vidiri etc. scenarios to re-emerge?
-
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Hang on, you're saying that for any international team, all their players should be living in the country they represent? That would completely change the face of rugby (and decimate most teams outside SANZAR and 6N (although I'd say even Italy would be heavily affected).
No, I didn't say that.
I said that if you're only playing club rugby abroad, then you're fine to represent whatever country you qualify for, be it birth, residence, whatever.
But if you choose to represent a country, then to them flip and play for another country, then some criteria must apply. And I think residence would be a great start.
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
@voodoo ahhhh right, so it's only for those that want to change country. It'd basically never happen then (unless it's someone going from a T2 to a T1) but it's an interesting thought.
That 24yo returning to his village in Samoa isn't going to be playing rugby for a living. After 3-5 years he'll be a long way behind others that are.
-
@voodoo ahhhh right, so it's only for those that want to change country. It'd basically never happen then (unless it's someone going from a T2 to a T1) but it's an interesting thought.
That 24yo returning to his village in Samoa isn't going to be playing rugby for a living. After 3-5 years he'll be a long way behind others that are.
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo ahhhh right, so it's only for those that want to change country. It'd basically never happen then (unless it's someone going from a T2 to a T1) but it's an interesting thought.
That 24yo returning to his village in Samoa isn't going to be playing rugby for a living. After 3-5 years he'll be a long way behind others that are.
Yeah maybe. Who knows? But I don't see why we should (or could) stop someone who wanted to!
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
And to be completely clear, I'm not the one trying to make it harder for guys to go back and represent the PI nations - most of you seem to be of the opinion that you "make your bed, now lie in it".
I'm putting forward the position that this seems way too harsh, and there should be some leeway.
Residency is just one way to meet somewhere in the middle.
OK, fine. What about the other way around? Are you happy for the Bunce, Ieremia, Vidiri etc. scenarios to re-emerge?
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
And to be completely clear, I'm not the one trying to make it harder for guys to go back and represent the PI nations - most of you seem to be of the opinion that you "make your bed, now lie in it".
I'm putting forward the position that this seems way too harsh, and there should be some leeway.
Residency is just one way to meet somewhere in the middle.
OK, fine. What about the other way around? Are you happy for the Bunce, Ieremia, Vidiri etc. scenarios to re-emerge?
What do you mean specifically?
To clarify my position, I'm ok with different rules applying for guys going from T1 to T2 than the other direction. As I said earlier, it's important to understand what the rules are actually there for. Who or what are they providing protection for? If the ultimate goal is strong rugby sides around the world, then let's aim for that. If the goal is equal opportunity for all players then maybe that's a different story.
-
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo ahhhh right, so it's only for those that want to change country. It'd basically never happen then (unless it's someone going from a T2 to a T1) but it's an interesting thought.
That 24yo returning to his village in Samoa isn't going to be playing rugby for a living. After 3-5 years he'll be a long way behind others that are.
Yeah maybe. Who knows? But I don't see why we should (or could) stop someone who wanted to!
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo ahhhh right, so it's only for those that want to change country. It'd basically never happen then (unless it's someone going from a T2 to a T1) but it's an interesting thought.
That 24yo returning to his village in Samoa isn't going to be playing rugby for a living. After 3-5 years he'll be a long way behind others that are.
Yeah maybe. Who knows? But I don't see why we should (or could) stop someone who wanted to!
I agree in that scenario, but what about the Tongan living in NZ who then decides he wants to represent NZ?
-
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Hang on, you're saying that for any international team, all their players should be living in the country they represent? That would completely change the face of rugby (and decimate most teams outside SANZAR and 6N (although I'd say even Italy would be heavily affected).
No, I didn't say that.
I said that if you're only playing club rugby abroad, then you're fine to represent whatever country you qualify for, be it birth, residence, whatever.
But if you choose to represent a country, then to them flip and play for another country, then some criteria must apply. And I think residence would be a great start.
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
Other hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, schooled in NZ, plays an 8 game season for Samoa and stars. Now he's good, he declares his residence in Auckland to make money for the ABs.
Fast forward 4 years, he's not the cream of the crop any more, and solid squad player (somewhere outside the 23). Decides to cash in, so moves to London, declares through a grandparent he's now English.
Still happy with that scenario?
Edit: or England come knocking dangling fat cheques in front of him while he's playing for NZ...
I don't like it. International sport is one country, with difficulties in changing for a reason
