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Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="561085" data-time="1456474437">
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<p>you called the process higgeldy piggeldy - i apologise for confusing this with you meaning it was flawed.</p>
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<p><strong>The process wasn't flawed. It became flawed because the government bowed to the leftards.</strong></p>
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<p>Now you're just getting into semantics. As for the first sentence, in the post of mine you quoted check out the last few words.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="561074" data-time="1456473685">
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<p>I take it you're not criticing the process with that statement ... seems to be an example of i don't like the outcome so the process us wrong. But I'm sure that's not the case eh Neps?</p>
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<p>So, what you're suggesting in a round about way is that you can only have a problem with a process if you like the outcome? Good to know.</p>
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<p>At any rate I was criticising the dingbats (not BJ or Beatrice of course) who picked the 4, although TBF you have to give them credit for not picking Red Peak.</p>
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MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="561110" data-time="1456475754">
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<p>Now you're just getting into semantics. As for the first sentence, in the post of mine you quoted check out the last few words.</p>
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<p>So, what you're suggesting in a round about way is that you can only have a problem with a process if you like the outcome? Good to know.</p>
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<p>At any rate I was criticising the dingbats (not BJ or Beatrice of course) who picked the 4, although TBF you have to give them credit for not picking Red Peak.</p>
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<p>No I'm not - this is a very important point. The process wasn't flawed, it was fine. Then a bunch of sandal wearing dipshits said it was flawed, and created enough pressure to make it flawed. So when they said it was flawed, it wasn't. Then they made it flawed, at which point they said it wasn't anymore.</p>
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<p>And the govt was proved correct when Red Peak sucked in the vote.</p>
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<p>It was the equivalent of the RWC quarter finalists being sorted, and then World Rugby deciding because of England being the hosts, they should be in there, and reinstating them somehow. And then them getting drubbed and kicked out again.</p>

No Quarter

I don't have anything to say about the process, as I'm really not sure what a "good" process for changing the flag would be. I haven't seen any good arguments against the process apart from adding Red Peak late in the piece, though that didn't end up impacting anything as fuck all people voted for it.<br><br>
When the process was first kicked off I was sure that we would have a Silver Fern on black and three others to choose from. Silver Fern on black is the most instantly recognisable "NZ" flag so I was very disappointed it was not even an option. I have no idea how it would have polled, but given how poorly 3 of the 5 options polled, I think there was room for our most iconic flag.<br><br>
Unfortunately I think my 2nd favourite sports team the All Blacks had a bit to do with that as quite a number of entries were discarded for copyright reasons. <br><br>
But I think what had an even bigger influence was anti-Key ferals doing everything they could to undermine the process. I don't envy those on the panel trying to gauge public opinion when you have to sift through so much completely vile crap. And I blame social media for giving them such a loud voice. As I said in the FB thread, I deleted my account years ago and am yet to have any regrets.<br><br>
I did hear rumours that it looked too much like the ISIS flag, but surely the panel was not influenced by the flag of a bunch of fucking loony sky-fairy believing fucktards on the other side of the world...surely...

JC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="561143" data-time="1456478757">
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<p> </p>
<p>It was the equivalent of the RWC quarter finalists being sorted, and then World Rugby deciding because of England being the hosts, they should be in there, and reinstating them somehow. And then them getting drubbed and kicked out again.</p>
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<p>Now that's the version of Invictus I'd like to see.</p>

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="561143" data-time="1456478757">
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<p><strong>No I'm not - this is a very important point. The process wasn't flawed, it was fine. Then a bunch of sandal wearing dipshits said it was flawed, and created enough pressure to make it flawed. So when they said it was flawed, it wasn't. Then they made it flawed, at which point they said it wasn't anymore.</strong></p>
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<p>And the govt was proved correct when Red Peak sucked in the vote.</p>
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<p>It was the equivalent of the RWC quarter finalists being sorted, and then World Rugby deciding because of England being the hosts, they should be in there, and reinstating them somehow. And then them getting drubbed and kicked out again.</p>
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<p>Trying to follow that gave me a headache. So many flawed's. </p>
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<p>I think, at the least, we agree that Red Peak shouldn't have been allowed to enter when they did. :)</p>

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="561147" data-time="1456479535">
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<p>I don't have anything to say about the process, as I'm really not sure what a "good" process for changing the flag would be. I haven't seen any good arguments against the process apart from adding Red Peak late in the piece, though that didn't end up impacting anything as fuck all people voted for it.<br><br>
When the process was first kicked off I was sure that we would have a Silver Fern on black and three others to choose from. Silver Fern on black is the most instantly recognisable "NZ" flag so I was very disappointed it was not even an option. I have no idea how it would have polled, but given how poorly 3 of the 5 options polled, I think there was room for our most iconic flag.<br><br>
Unfortunately I think <strong>my 2nd favourite sports team the All Blacks</strong> had a bit to do with that as quite a number of entries were discarded for copyright reasons.<br><br>
But I think what had an even bigger influence was anti-Key ferals doing everything they could to undermine the process. I don't envy those on the panel trying to gauge public opinion when you have to sift through so much completely vile crap. And I blame social media for giving them such a loud voice. As I said in the FB thread, I deleted my account years ago and am yet to have any regrets.<br><br>
I did hear rumours that it looked too much like the ISIS flag, but surely the panel was not influenced by the flag of a bunch of fucking loony sky-fairy believing fucktards on the other side of the world...surely...</p>
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<p>Now I'm just wondering who your favourite team is. :think:</p>

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="561154" data-time="1456480622">
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<p>Now I'm just wondering who your favourite team is. :think:</p>
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<p>The black caps?</p>

jegga

taniwharugby

<p>but apparently there are no endorsements of the current flga...only John Keys propoganda machine</p>

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="561021" data-time="1456468888"><p>
To those that argue that we shouldn't change because of respect to elders, past generations, war heroes ... I don't have a problem with (although I think your view is based perhaps more on emotion than fact).<br></p></blockquote>
Great post Rage. Can I just add the thought that the logic behind "our soldiers fought for that flag" is flawed. (Given we're into flawed processes tonight.) Our soldiers did not fight for the flag. They fought for our country, our way of life and our right to make these sort of decisions.<br><br><br>
And having thought a bit about the Red Triangle being added to the referendum. I've changed my mind. Adding it WAS the RIGHT decision. It was an option that (appeared to) have generated some passion and interest. On that basis it deserved to be added. Obviously it's perceived popularity was wildly overestimated and gross overstated. But it did come 3rd. So on that basis I think it was good that it was added to the list.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JC" data-cid="560913" data-time="1456451062">
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<p>How would that have worked? If I had been asked "do you want to change the flag, yes/no" my immediate response would have been "why, what are you offering as an alternative?".</p>
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<p>Without giving people an alternative up front voting yes to a change isn't making a choice, it's just rejecting the status quo. You'd have to have a real ideological dislike for the current flag to do that. While I'm open to the idea of a new flag if the right alternative is put before me I don't feel strongly enough to simply reject the existing one out of hand.</p>
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<p>As far as I can see it had to be done this way round.</p>
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<p>An alternative question would have been "do you want to remove the Union Jack from the NZ flag" and you go from there. The reasons for changing the flag are not those simply on asthetic preference but the lack of distinctiveness and presence of the Union Jack (i.e. ties/subservience to the UK).</p>
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<p>Almost all of the best and most distinctive flags came out of political committee or a design contest - not a public vote or a two stage plebiscite.</p>
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<p>I understand what you are saying but now we are currently in a situation where it is essentially a beauty contest do you prefer the old flag to the blue/black Lockwood. We aren't getting to the heart of the matter which is "do you want to change the NZ flag". I want to change the NZ flag, but I think the Lockwood design is a mess - so I'm not sure what to vote there (likely will not)</p>
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<p>The the white/black fern option is one of the least aesthetically pleasing silver ferns I have seen in my life. I would happily vote for a decent looking silver fern option (amongst many others) - but the fact that was the best take on the classic silver fern we could turn up in this process (as well as the prescence of utter nonsense like Blackjack in the final 40) could turn up leads me to believe that the process was pretty flawed.</p>

taniwharugby

<p>well I dont agree with that, as others have said, if you ask someone if they want to change something, they want to know what they are to change too, if you dont give them the option it is far too easy to stay with the status quo, even if you want to change...not to mention all those already suspicious this is a done deal already, how much more suspicious would that section be if you had no choice to start with, and then there would be those opposed to change would fuel that conspiracy angle too.</p>
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<p>I think too many believe shite they read on social media than to be mature enough to make half a decision like that, they need to be babied through it.</p>

booboo

A couple if things:<br><br>

I would not be a fan of a straight silver fern. But those who support said silver fern seem to think it would gave gained universal acceptance. Not sure it would.<br><br>
Agree that the silver fern option on the final 4/5 was pretty ordinary.<br><br>
Those criticising the process seem to think it should have come up with a universally lived and admired option. Which would have been exactly aligned with their own personal expectations. Not sure what that option would be really. <br><br>
The claim that no designers were involved: they all had the opportunity to create and submit designs.<br><br>
The only drawback to the Lockwood is a lack of Maori symbolism. But I still like it.<br><br>
Aussies I've talked to like the Lockwood and think it's a foregone conclusion it will get in. Until i give them some background.<br><br>
Vote Lockwood.

jegga

Polling looks like the leftards and rsa might have their way.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561217" data-time="1456518599">
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<p>well I dont agree with that, as others have said, if you ask someone if they want to change something, they want to know what they are to change too, if you dont give them the option it is far too easy to stay with the status quo, even if you want to change...not to mention all those already suspicious this is a done deal already, how much more suspicious would that section be if you had no choice to start with, and then there would be those opposed to change would fuel that conspiracy angle too.</p>
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<p><strong>I think too many believe shite they read on social media than to be mature enough to make half a decision like that, they need to be babied through it.</strong></p>
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<p>That can be said for most democracies in the world. The flag debate is one example, this is another</p>
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<p><img src="http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/55918b77ecad04a3465a0a63/nbc-fires-donald-trump-after-he-calls-mexicans-rapists-and-drug-runners.jpg" alt="nbc-fires-donald-trump-after-he-calls-me"></p>

taniwharugby

<p>can only imagine the smug 'waste of money' and 'bye Donkey' type shit that will follow if the current flag remains...which while I am pro-change, wouldnt bother me greatly if not for all the smug bleating that will follow. </p>

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="561056" data-time="1456472137">
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<p><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">I know all you seem to come here is for shitfighting these days but I'll respond anyway - no I didn't say a process had to be perfect, I said it wasn't 'perfect'. The rest is all in your imagination.</span></p>
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<p>Dont tell me why I come on here nowdays you pompous jack ass.</p>
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<p>You are the one polluting this thread with one confused position after another, you are clearly just another anti Key whinger...but know that if you come out and actually say that is your reason for bitching about the process you will rightfully lampooned.</p>
<p>Of course I had to use my imagination to fill in some of the gaps of your position, because it is nearly all gaps, and as soon as we ask for clarification, you just create another meaningless whinge.. with just enough wriggle room so you can escape to your next whinge location.</p>
<p>The process was flawed.. then it was 'higgledy piggledy'... then it wasn't perfect. All the while you are just at your vacuous best in actually specifying any real issues with it....</p>
<p>When I said that a perfect process is a pretty high bar.... you just wriggle around and say that you didnt say it did.. which begs the question.... what exactly was the point in you saying it wasn't perfect? Actually never mind... people will know very well why you said it.</p>

Nepia

Hahaha - you're calling someone pompous, that's the equivalent of firing ballistic missiles in glass houses.<br><br>
Furthermore, you're making shit up, I've barely been on this thread aside from my recent comments and some early on.<br><br>
I told you exactly why it was flawed/higgeldy piggledy/not perfect (is it semantics week?). You're ignoring that for whatever reason you feel like.<br><br>
I haven't said one anti Key thing on this thread - that's in your mind -(speaking of not telling people what they honk jackass) I'm happy that he's pushed the flag change forward. <br><br>
You're the one letting your ideology dominate your interactions on this thread while you sling mud.

jegga

<p>Just had a read of the flag thread on planet rugby, take my advice and don't . Its pretty much full of the same sort of crap as the facebook posts that have been popping up here.</p>
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<p>Anyone childish enough to call Key Jong Kee deserves the same amount of respect as the loons who used to call Clark Hulun Klark, ie none at all. </p>

Mokey

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Found this on Facebook. Pretty much sums it up for me. (In another post, he notes the NZ flag was designed in 1869, adopted in 1902. The Aussie flag was chosen from competition entries in 1901, modified by King Edward in 1903 and adopted 1908. SO WHO COPIED WHO???) :mail: :think:

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<span><span><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.facebook.com/MAORIMADE/?fref=nf'>Steve the Maori</a></span></span>

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<div><span><span><a class="" href="https://www.facebook.com/MAORIMADE/photos/a.115767788505937.25594.108700732545976/970416646374376/?type=3"><span>February 25 at 10:04am</span></a><span> Â· </span><a class="" href="https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tauranga-New-Zealand/115055298507659">Tauranga, New Zealand</a></span></span><span> Â· </span></div>
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<p>Let's try this.</p>
<p>Remove thinking about your hate of the National Party and the Prime Minister.<br>
Take note that the money has already been spent ($26,000,000)</p>
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<p>Now read everything below and ask yourself if it's a good idea?</p>
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<div><a class="" href="https://www.facebook.com/MAORIMADE/photos/a.115767788505937.25594.108700732545976/970416646374376/?type=3"><img height="429" src="https://fbcdn-photos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/12742560_970416646374376_3046284989552780226_n.jpg?oh=9ee615ef5cf97d3d46007d9a2552e3b3&oe=57716F84&gda=1465847097_b444a5a6b72d2293b6c9638a204b6646" width="471" alt="12742560_970416646374376_304628498955278"></a></div>
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The Silver Fern

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