All Blacks EOYT 2021
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I think the problems run way deeper than Havili at 12. The problems have been there since the Lions. I used to blame SBW for stifling the backline, but the issues have remained.
Buggered if I know the answer though.
@crazy-horse part of it is none of them are Nonu...I think Havili has done a reasonable job, similarly I thought Goodhue did a reasonable job playing an attacking role more suited to Laumape (if Laumpae had Goodhues brain and defence)
Are a few young guys coming through who could be options, ALB is probably the best option at present IMO, but filling the Nonu void is huge, coupled with getting the right balance with the 13.
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@crazy-horse part of it is none of them are Nonu...I think Havili has done a reasonable job, similarly I thought Goodhue did a reasonable job playing an attacking role more suited to Laumape (if Laumpae had Goodhues brain and defence)
Are a few young guys coming through who could be options, ALB is probably the best option at present IMO, but filling the Nonu void is huge, coupled with getting the right balance with the 13.
@taniwharugby I think part of the problem is that everyone keeps comparing every potential ABs 12 with Nonu. No one compares ALB (for example) with Conrad Smith. ALB is ALB, and no one calls him "the new Conrad Smith". Crotty was probably the player who came closest to being like CS,; not at 13 but at 12. If anything, Havili is quite crottyesque and can hopefully become just as good.
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ALB isn't going to be playing much at 2nd 5 for the Chiefs in the future, whether in combination with Tupaea or Nankivell.
Remember that Umaga moved from winger to centre but also played at 2nd 5. Trying Rieko at 12 might be worth looking at. While he won't get as much space compared to centre he can be a direct runner, and there are less decisions to be made defensively.
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@taniwharugby I think part of the problem is that everyone keeps comparing every potential ABs 12 with Nonu. No one compares ALB (for example) with Conrad Smith. ALB is ALB, and no one calls him "the new Conrad Smith". Crotty was probably the player who came closest to being like CS,; not at 13 but at 12. If anything, Havili is quite crottyesque and can hopefully become just as good.
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Havili is quite crottyesque and can hopefully become just as good
if we're going anywhere he needs to be way better than that
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time.
people dont like waiting.
Yep, and like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@stargazer said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
it's Havili's first year playing at 12, give the guy some time.
people dont like waiting.
Yep, and like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Definitely one of my favourite hobbies
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@nevorian James Botham is the grandson of Ian? God, I feel old.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nevorian James Botham is the grandson of Ian? God, I feel old.
Is his nickname Beefy too ? I’m assuming he’s Liams son, Liam is my age.
I feel old too.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nevorian James Botham is the grandson of Ian? God, I feel old.
Is his nickname Beefy too ? I’m assuming he’s Liams son, Liam is my age.
I feel old too.
@mn5 said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nevorian James Botham is the grandson of Ian? God, I feel old.
Is his nickname Beefy too ? I’m assuming he’s Liams son, Liam is my age.
I feel old too.
Son of Liam, called "Jimbo" or 'The Duke', not heavy at all for his height, obv thinks ahead because his gf is a physio.
Here endeth the Welsh hot cheese sauce.
Oh and his grandfather wears a red not white shirt when he's playing.
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ALB isn't going to be playing much at 2nd 5 for the Chiefs in the future, whether in combination with Tupaea or Nankivell.
Remember that Umaga moved from winger to centre but also played at 2nd 5. Trying Rieko at 12 might be worth looking at. While he won't get as much space compared to centre he can be a direct runner, and there are less decisions to be made defensively.
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@nevorian said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@nevorian said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Seems like Wales vs NZ may miss key players like Tipuric, North, Biggar, Rees-Zammit, Faletau etc (see list, ignore clickbait headline)
"While Williams joins Justin Tipuric, George North, Leigh Halfpenny, Dan Lydiate, James Botham, Jarrod Evans and Josh Macleod on the injury list the Welsh are also without their England-based stars ... game is outside the official Test window which means Premiership clubs won’t be required to release their players for the fixture ... Dan Biggar, Louis Rees-Zammit, Taulupe Faletau, Callum Sheedy, Nick Tompkins, Ioan Lloyd and Tommy Reffell will be missing."
Great big banana skin waiting for us there then
pffft hahaha what? They haven't beaten us since the 50s, so suddenly they are a chance with half their starting team out?
Exactly
And Fozzies selections against what will be a Wales B team
But a well coached Wales B Team. Pivac and Rennie seem to have a clear vision on where they're headed.
Both have come up via NH club Head Coach roles. NZ biggest drain these days imho is coaching talent, more than (key) player drain.
Pivac was considered a disaster early on. The fans wanted him out early on.
To your second point, I have been saying that for a while. The coaching drain is having a bigger impact than the player drain - it affects all levels of rugby in NZ.
I don't think fozzie gets into the top 5 NZ coaches around the globe. Maybe scrapes into the top 10
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ALB isn't going to be playing much at 2nd 5 for the Chiefs in the future, whether in combination with Tupaea or Nankivell.
Remember that Umaga moved from winger to centre but also played at 2nd 5. Trying Rieko at 12 might be worth looking at. While he won't get as much space compared to centre he can be a direct runner, and there are less decisions to be made defensively.
Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
It was clear Laumape wasn't favoured by this regime or the previous regime.
He would have been a far better option at 12 than a converted fullback for us. cest le vie
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@cgrant said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@frye said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Ardie at 12.
Let's goWhy not Dane Coles then ?
Dunno, is this a trick question? Because he's old as shit?
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Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
It was clear Laumape wasn't favoured by this regime or the previous regime.
He would have been a far better option at 12 than a converted fullback for us. cest le vie
@dagrubster said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
I'm not saying I want this to happen, just that if you want a midfielder that gets you over the advantage line Rieko would be the player who could do that out of all the other experienced options.
As to Laumape, he was never as effective at test level than in SR, although only started in 7 tests of the 15 he played.
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
I'm not saying I want this to happen, just that if you want a midfielder that gets you over the advantage line Rieko would be the player who could do that out of all the other experienced options.
As to Laumape, he was never as effective at test level than in SR, although only started in 7 tests of the 15 he played.
@bovidae said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
I'm not saying I want this to happen, just that if you want a midfielder that gets you over the advantage line Rieko would be the player who could do that out of all the other experienced options.
As to Laumape, he was never as effective at test level than in SR, although only started in 7 tests of the 15 he played.
I stand by my position that Laumape never got a chance to perform to his ability in the black jersey. Did everything he could within the confines of what was asked of him, but never got the chance to run straight and hard at a weak shoulder. And don't try suggest he's 'too small for international rugby'. He was a solid unit, and a nightmare to tackle.
No I don't have my receipts.
Yes the burden of proof should probably be on me.
Don't care. Ngani was robbed, and so were the paying public. I'm going to be annoyed about this for a good while yet, judging by the current midfield crop. -
@bovidae said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
I'm not saying I want this to happen, just that if you want a midfielder that gets you over the advantage line Rieko would be the player who could do that out of all the other experienced options.
As to Laumape, he was never as effective at test level than in SR, although only started in 7 tests of the 15 he played.
I stand by my position that Laumape never got a chance to perform to his ability in the black jersey. Did everything he could within the confines of what was asked of him, but never got the chance to run straight and hard at a weak shoulder. And don't try suggest he's 'too small for international rugby'. He was a solid unit, and a nightmare to tackle.
No I don't have my receipts.
Yes the burden of proof should probably be on me.
Don't care. Ngani was robbed, and so were the paying public. I'm going to be annoyed about this for a good while yet, judging by the current midfield crop.@delicatessen said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
I stand by my position that Laumape never got a chance to perform to his ability in the black jersey
is a tough one really, I know early in Nonu's career plenty wanted him dropped, but Laumape was older and still lacked some of the finesse Nonu showed early on and then developed further.
I personally think he was only ever going to be a decent 12 at Int level, no better or worse than we have currently, I also dont think his ceiling was much higher at this level too, so maybe that was why he wasnt given more opportunities?
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@bovidae said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
I'm not saying I want this to happen, just that if you want a midfielder that gets you over the advantage line Rieko would be the player who could do that out of all the other experienced options.
As to Laumape, he was never as effective at test level than in SR, although only started in 7 tests of the 15 he played.
I stand by my position that Laumape never got a chance to perform to his ability in the black jersey. Did everything he could within the confines of what was asked of him, but never got the chance to run straight and hard at a weak shoulder. And don't try suggest he's 'too small for international rugby'. He was a solid unit, and a nightmare to tackle.
No I don't have my receipts.
Yes the burden of proof should probably be on me.
Don't care. Ngani was robbed, and so were the paying public. I'm going to be annoyed about this for a good while yet, judging by the current midfield crop.@delicatessen said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@bovidae said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
I'm not saying I want this to happen, just that if you want a midfielder that gets you over the advantage line Rieko would be the player who could do that out of all the other experienced options.
As to Laumape, he was never as effective at test level than in SR, although only started in 7 tests of the 15 he played.
I stand by my position that Laumape never got a chance to perform to his ability in the black jersey. Did everything he could within the confines of what was asked of him, but never got the chance to run straight and hard at a weak shoulder. And don't try suggest he's 'too small for international rugby'. He was a solid unit, and a nightmare to tackle.
No I don't have my receipts.
Yes the burden of proof should probably be on me.
Don't care. Ngani was robbed, and so were the paying public. I'm going to be annoyed about this for a good while yet, judging by the current midfield crop.I think it was said that consistency was the box he wasn't ticking. Take his performances for the Canes. One week he was everything you wanted and could build a strategy around the next he would go to do the same and be ineffective.
He did seem to be upping he dimensions and skills and maybe that was a contributing factor to looking inconsistent but it was still there. -
@delicatessen said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
I stand by my position that Laumape never got a chance to perform to his ability in the black jersey
is a tough one really, I know early in Nonu's career plenty wanted him dropped, but Laumape was older and still lacked some of the finesse Nonu showed early on and then developed further.
I personally think he was only ever going to be a decent 12 at Int level, no better or worse than we have currently, I also dont think his ceiling was much higher at this level too, so maybe that was why he wasnt given more opportunities?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@delicatessen said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
I stand by my position that Laumape never got a chance to perform to his ability in the black jersey
is a tough one really, I know early in Nonu's career plenty wanted him dropped, but Laumape was older and still lacked some of the finesse Nonu showed early on and then developed further.
I personally think he was only ever going to be a decent 12 at Int level, no better or worse than we have currently, I also dont think his ceiling was much higher at this level too, so maybe that was why he wasnt given more opportunities?
Yeah I don't think he would've got to Nonu's level. I do think he would've gotten a lot closer than any other options we have available.
Regarding age, Laumape didn't exactly start early. Of his own doing, but still.
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@delicatessen said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@bovidae said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
I'm not saying I want this to happen, just that if you want a midfielder that gets you over the advantage line Rieko would be the player who could do that out of all the other experienced options.
As to Laumape, he was never as effective at test level than in SR, although only started in 7 tests of the 15 he played.
I stand by my position that Laumape never got a chance to perform to his ability in the black jersey. Did everything he could within the confines of what was asked of him, but never got the chance to run straight and hard at a weak shoulder. And don't try suggest he's 'too small for international rugby'. He was a solid unit, and a nightmare to tackle.
No I don't have my receipts.
Yes the burden of proof should probably be on me.
Don't care. Ngani was robbed, and so were the paying public. I'm going to be annoyed about this for a good while yet, judging by the current midfield crop.I think it was said that consistency was the box he wasn't ticking. Take his performances for the Canes. One week he was everything you wanted and could build a strategy around the next he would go to do the same and be ineffective.
He did seem to be upping he dimensions and skills and maybe that was a contributing factor to looking inconsistent but it was still there.@crucial said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@delicatessen said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@bovidae said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks EOYT 2021:
Reiko would be a waste at 12.
I believe he has had a much better year at 13 but was far better on the wing. great to see him back to his best this year.
I'm not saying I want this to happen, just that if you want a midfielder that gets you over the advantage line Rieko would be the player who could do that out of all the other experienced options.
As to Laumape, he was never as effective at test level than in SR, although only started in 7 tests of the 15 he played.
I stand by my position that Laumape never got a chance to perform to his ability in the black jersey. Did everything he could within the confines of what was asked of him, but never got the chance to run straight and hard at a weak shoulder. And don't try suggest he's 'too small for international rugby'. He was a solid unit, and a nightmare to tackle.
No I don't have my receipts.
Yes the burden of proof should probably be on me.
Don't care. Ngani was robbed, and so were the paying public. I'm going to be annoyed about this for a good while yet, judging by the current midfield crop.I think it was said that consistency was the box he wasn't ticking. Take his performances for the Canes. One week he was everything you wanted and could build a strategy around the next he would go to do the same and be ineffective.
He did seem to be upping he dimensions and skills and maybe that was a contributing factor to looking inconsistent but it was still there.Oh come on. Now you're trying to say the All Blacks have a strategy?
Nah I agree. It was a weird situation and I don't think he was managed well at all. He was a whole raft of things to improve on at once, whereas Nonu seemed to gradually work new aspects into his game. Seemed like one a year for a bit there.
