Foster, Robertson etc
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@Chester-Draws said in Foster must go:
It turns out that that pretty much everything hung on the coaching. Everything else was fine when he was good.
Sorry, but I think that's way too simplistic and assumes quality of cattle, player development, quality of opposition, the quality of the people choosing and supporting the coach and the processes around managing the game have no impact on the results.
Sure, a good coach is essential and can get the best out of what he's been given, but he can't fix the structural issues in his union.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chester-Draws said in Foster must go:
It turns out that that pretty much everything hung on the coaching. Everything else was fine when he was good.
Sorry, but I think that's way too simplistic and assumes quality of cattle, player development, quality of opposition, the quality of the people choosing and supporting the coach and the processes around managing the game have no impact on the results.
Sure, a good coach is essential and can get the best out of what he's been given, but he can't fix the structural issues in his union.
At Super level and AB level the quality of players doesn't go up and down so much. (At club and school, of course, it is different). In this particular case, I would argue that our recent extremely poor form is not a lack of players.
Of course the decision to choose the right coach requires good choices. But does that really rely on good structure? I've seen good structures ruined by bad people, and good people work well enough in bad structures (which they then fix, often as not). Generally the people are overwhelmingly important, not how the the chairs are arranged.
And a good coach can sort out structure, if sufficiently powerful. Rennie definitely did it. I believe Henry did it.
Again and again we see average teams transformed by a change of coach. I am I really expected to believe that a backroom change happened in Queensland just as Ewen McKenzie came in? The Blues and Warriors made all sorts of background changes, yet it was the one when MacDonald was selected that was the magic one? Or maybe the changes made no difference, and the coach did.
Edit: Waikato placed higher than Canterbury in last year's NPC. Are you willing to argue that Canterbury must therefore have a structure as bad as one of the most inept organisations on the planet, the WRU?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chester-Draws said in Foster must go:
It turns out that that pretty much everything hung on the coaching. Everything else was fine when he was good.
Sorry, but I think that's way too simplistic and assumes quality of cattle, player development, quality of opposition, the quality of the people choosing and supporting the coach and the processes around managing the game have no impact on the results.
Sure, a good coach is essential and can get the best out of what he's been given, but he can't fix the structural issues in his union.
At Super level and AB level the quality of players doesn't go up and down so much. (At club and school, of course, it is different). In this particular case, I would argue that our recent extremely poor form is not a lack of players.
Of course the decision to choose the right coach requires good choices. But does that really rely on good structure? I've seen good structures ruined by bad people, and good people work well enough in bad structures (which they then fix, often as not). Generally the people are overwhelmingly important, not how the the chairs are arranged.
And a good coach can sort out structure, if sufficiently powerful. Rennie definitely did it. I believe Henry did it.
Again and again we see average teams transformed by a change of coach. I am I really expected to believe that a backroom change happened in Queensland just as Ewen McKenzie came in? The Blues and Warriors made all sorts of background changes, yet it was the one when MacDonald was selected that was the magic one? Or maybe the changes made no difference, and the coach did.
Edit: Waikato placed higher than Canterbury in last year's NPC. Are you willing to argue that Canterbury must therefore have a structure as bad as one of the most inept organisations on the planet, the WRU?
@Chester-Draws The Blues changed owners, board members, CEO, coaches, talent scouts, even where they trained. These changes stopped the provinces that make up the team infighting and led to a better selection process for the coaches.
So it's moot whether the coach was the answer, because without the backroom changes we would still have Tana (The Blues version of Foster).
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@nzzp said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew progress for the new coach won't just be winning, but clarity around selections, game plans and direction. There may be short term losses, but there has to be hope for the future.
You raise a really good point though, the issue is deeper than just the coach. But the coach has appeared to be a significant part of the issue.
My point is if/when we dump Foster we have to expect much more than just visibility of new game plan and getting more information at pressers on selection thinking.
Sure, I'll give a loss or two if that means progress, but I'd want some pretty rapid progress after 2-3 games if I were NZR and have some contingency plans on re-appointment in place if it doesn't happen. Hope is all well and good, but let's not have another Foster-like fiasco.
I don’t think that will be an expectation nor should it be.
If (and I still think it is a massive if) a new coach and assistants are installed then NZR will have to say there is a massive problem to justify such a step. Massive problems aren’t turned around in 2-3 games.
From a playing perspective it will take time for philosophy buy in and the changes to manifest. From a PR perspective we will be in that similar position to the post Connolly and MacKenzie Wallabies of managing expectations and sending out messages of what’s working in camp etc.
@ACT-Crusader said in Foster must go:
If (and I still think it is a massive if) a new coach and assistants are installed then NZR will have to say there is a massive problem to justify such a step. Massive problems aren’t turned around in 2-3 games.
Yeah - I reckon it's a massive IF.
Right now, I'll be more surprised than not if Fozzie is NOT our coach at RWC.
However, I don't think a new coach needs a massive amount of time to bed things in pre-RWC. Even if Fozzie got the boot at the end of the year that would probably be enough time. We've probably got half a dozen tests scheduled pre-RWC next year?
Let's face it - a brand new coach would definitely turn up with plenty of dry powder. We just need to make sure he's got time to get his artillery in place!
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It's bad enough that this NZRU PR is passed off as "analysis" in our horrible media environment, but does the Herald really need to promote it too? At the very least it should be marked as "sponsored content".
All Black great Sir John Kirwan says now is not the time to change the All Blacks coach as pressure mounts on Ian Foster following the 2-1 series defeat to Ireland.
In an interview with Newstalk ZB's Tim Dower, Kirwan was asked if now was the time to change the coaching staff.
"Not at all. I think there's going to be some real decisions to make. They've got the Rugby Championship coming up, flying to South Africa next week. It's never been done in the history of the game [firing an All Blacks coach]. I believe Ian Foster can turn this around. Well he has to turn it around - should I say.
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An enterprising journo needs to get the good oil on what the players are thinking. Plainly, they are an unhappy crew. Foster pulling Cane 15 minutes before the final whistle in Wellington suggested he was trying to make his own captain the patsy for the tripe that was served up. Something is rotten in the state of
DenmarkAotearoa.@MrDenmore said in Foster must go:
An enterprising journo needs to get the good oil on what the players are thinking. Plainly, they are an unhappy crew. Foster pulling Cane 15 minutes before the final whistle in Wellington suggested he was trying to make his own captain the patsy for the tripe that was served up. Something is rotten in the state of
DenmarkAotearoa.Are we reading a bit too much into this? IIRC Kolisi gets pulled in matches for the Boks so it could be Foster just thought he'd expended too much energy?
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It's bad enough that this NZRU PR is passed off as "analysis" in our horrible media environment, but does the Herald really need to promote it too? At the very least it should be marked as "sponsored content".
All Black great Sir John Kirwan says now is not the time to change the All Blacks coach as pressure mounts on Ian Foster following the 2-1 series defeat to Ireland.
In an interview with Newstalk ZB's Tim Dower, Kirwan was asked if now was the time to change the coaching staff.
"Not at all. I think there's going to be some real decisions to make. They've got the Rugby Championship coming up, flying to South Africa next week. It's never been done in the history of the game [firing an All Blacks coach]. I believe Ian Foster can turn this around. Well he has to turn it around - should I say.
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@Tim SJK has got so much wrong this year, just keep on keeping on.
@taniwharugby He's basically an employee of the NZRU, so anything he says should be disregarded as PR.
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It's bad enough that this NZRU PR is passed off as "analysis" in our horrible media environment, but does the Herald really need to promote it too? At the very least it should be marked as "sponsored content".
All Black great Sir John Kirwan says now is not the time to change the All Blacks coach as pressure mounts on Ian Foster following the 2-1 series defeat to Ireland.
In an interview with Newstalk ZB's Tim Dower, Kirwan was asked if now was the time to change the coaching staff.
"Not at all. I think there's going to be some real decisions to make. They've got the Rugby Championship coming up, flying to South Africa next week. It's never been done in the history of the game [firing an All Blacks coach]. I believe Ian Foster can turn this around. Well he has to turn it around - should I say.
@Tim well, JK is a fucking expert on substandard coaching. Him thinking Ian needs more time to turn it around sounds like wish fulfillment
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster must go:
If (and I still think it is a massive if) a new coach and assistants are installed then NZR will have to say there is a massive problem to justify such a step. Massive problems aren’t turned around in 2-3 games.
Yeah - I reckon it's a massive IF.
Right now, I'll be more surprised than not if Fozzie is NOT our coach at RWC.
However, I don't think a new coach needs a massive amount of time to bed things in pre-RWC. Even if Fozzie got the boot at the end of the year that would probably be enough time. We've probably got half a dozen tests scheduled pre-RWC next year?
Let's face it - a brand new coach would definitely turn up with plenty of dry powder. We just need to make sure he's got time to get his artillery in place!
@Chris-B If a coaching change is to be made, it would need to be before the EOYT. That gives the new coach enough time to get their support staff in place, and a tour is the perfect environment for them to implement changes.
As to NZR making a decision now, I'd say that is the reality of professional sport, and demonstrates leadership. We can't just rely on the end of a RWC cycle, or a coach to step away (e.g., Smith), for this to happen.
If Foster is to remain (for now), a win in one of the two tests in SA has to be a non-negotiable KPI.
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If NZR want to be a high performing organisation, it needs to be ruthless in implementing fixes where it's clear something isn't working. That "fix" doesn't have to be complete in its initial phase which goes to clearly rejecting unsatisfactory performance and sending a signal. Coaching positions can become vacant while you look for other candidates.
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I don't care if we lose against SA.
We need serious pruning and we need it now.
The time for risk is now. No more delay.
We need the young ones to start. Bower, ST, Vaai, Paps and QT
Chuck in another young prop. Our props have been dreadful.
Test out JB at 12, Jordan at 15 if thats what they want to try.
Try BB as impact sub.
Cant believe Sotutu and Grace haven't had a decent outing.
Shift Ardie from 8.
Need break dancing 100%, no other option.
About 4 fantastic older ABs need to retire.
Keep Whitelock, has GOAT like qualities. Make him captain, he'll last until 2023
Lets do it -
Although Bower has been excellent, I think the way that he is going well - essentially based on repeated efforts - shows that we should be using the younger players. For all we know, another one of the younger props with a big motor could be even better. When he is getting compared to old slow set-piecers like Laulala and Karl, it's not a surprise that he is a bright spot.
I'm not trying to run him down, just arguing that if they made better selections, we'd know if he was the best next LH around or is just better than the old slow ones we currently have.
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Although Bower has been excellent, I think the way that he is going well - essentially based on repeated efforts - shows that we should be using the younger players. For all we know, another one of the younger props with a big motor could be even better. When he is getting compared to old slow set-piecers like Laulala and Karl, it's not a surprise that he is a bright spot.
I'm not trying to run him down, just arguing that if they made better selections, we'd know if he was the best next LH around or is just better than the old slow ones we currently have.
@gt12 if Moody was fit he wouldn't even be playing
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@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Kirwan also tipped the ABs 13+ on the weekend
So did 18 Ferners!
To be fair, betting on a Foster team is an utter lottery.
I gave up on it a decade ago with the Chiefs. There is just no way you can tell what is coming.
I though the ABs might win by 13+, but then I thought they might lose by 13+ too.
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It's bad enough that this NZRU PR is passed off as "analysis" in our horrible media environment, but does the Herald really need to promote it too? At the very least it should be marked as "sponsored content".
All Black great Sir John Kirwan says now is not the time to change the All Blacks coach as pressure mounts on Ian Foster following the 2-1 series defeat to Ireland.
In an interview with Newstalk ZB's Tim Dower, Kirwan was asked if now was the time to change the coaching staff.
"Not at all. I think there's going to be some real decisions to make. They've got the Rugby Championship coming up, flying to South Africa next week. It's never been done in the history of the game [firing an All Blacks coach]. I believe Ian Foster can turn this around. Well he has to turn it around - should I say.
@Tim said in Foster must go:
It's bad enough that this NZRU PR is passed off as "analysis" in our horrible media environment, but does the Herald really need to promote it too? At the very least it should be marked as "sponsored content".
All Black great Sir John Kirwan says now is not the time to change the All Blacks coach as pressure mounts on Ian Foster following the 2-1 series defeat to Ireland.
In an interview with Newstalk ZB's Tim Dower, Kirwan was asked if now was the time to change the coaching staff.
"Not at all. I think there's going to be some real decisions to make. They've got the Rugby Championship coming up, flying to South Africa next week. It's never been done in the history of the game [firing an All Blacks coach]. I believe Ian Foster can turn this around. Well he has to turn it around - should I say.
Title of piece:
Shit coach endorses shit coach -
@gt12 if Moody was fit he wouldn't even be playing
@mariner4life Didn't they sign Moody to a long contract extension as well? It's like they stopped watching rugby after the
Lions tour2015.
