Foster, Robertson etc
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@Frye Also the loss of revenue at the gate associated with an under performing team. A few more losses and people will stay at home.
It’s not the gate that is the problem.
The ABs are the flagship brand for NZR. Essentially they pay for most things. If that brand starts to diminish then it will affect broadcasting right, sponsorships and further investment.
The ABs becoming also rans is the doomsday scenario for the NZR
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@canefan said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@junior said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@junior said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
I’d accept keeping the bledisloe and not losing to wales or Scotland on end of year tour. Oh and going 2-0 vs Argentina. Can’t expect a guy to come in at short notice and not potentially lose to SA in SA.
Not good enough. We'd be treading water or going backwards compared to Foster with no guarantee things are really on the up.
Enough mediocrity - put success measures in place and have an action plan if they aren't met.
Whatever we do, we run the risk of tings getting worse. But that in itself is not a reason to do nothing to try to turn around the currently dire situation.
Of course not.
We will all have to accept that with a change in coach, things may just get worse before they get better. We may also get a dead cat bounce where things get immediately worse, but then revert to what we currently have.
Nine Tests (to the end of '22) is more than enough for a decent coach to cement progress. And we'd need to listening for alarm bells if there isn't significant improvement by the end of the RC.
All this will tell us is that things are in fact worse than perhaps we had realised and that things would have gotten worse under Foster.
That's just a ready-made get-out-of-jail for non-improvement. People with far more knowledge of the game than me are saying we have superior players and skills and there are coaches out there with a game plan, able to build confidence and with a winning track record to turn things around.
We need improvement, not a coach telling us it would have been worse under the other guy - not even Foster used that as an excuse.
I would rather we accept these risks and be proactive about trying to avoid them by appointing a new coach with a proven track record of success - whether that's Razor, Schmidt or someone else like Gatland - than continue on with the current team of coaches who have little to no success in their own right.
Totally agree. But let's stop the excuses and acceptance of mediocrity. We have the players and we put in a coach with a track recording of winning. He either get a better track record than Foster got in '21 or considers his position and NZR has a contingency plan in place.
I think we may be a little at cross purposes here - I don't disagree with anything you have written above, I suppose I am being realistic in saying that a new coach may not be able to arrest all of the malaise. Just because this coach may not be the solution does not however mean that Foster is not part of the problem and therefore needs to go.
For what it's worth, I do think Razor or Schmidt - or even Gats for 16 months or so - could improve the team. What that means in terms of results, I don't know - but with anyone of those three, you can be confident that there might be some kind of plan in place and it might even be discernible.
I guess the point I'm making is, if it is just Foster that's the main problem, I don't see why it would take long to see improvement with a new coach, and 9 Tests seems long enough for me to see if the new bloke is up to it.
Any more than 3 losses would be way worse than Foster's win average and I'd be asking some serious questions at that stage. And there has to be a contingency plan in place if that happens.
Because a new coach doesn't have much time to know who are the best and potentially the best players? There are quite a few potential ABs that are relatively untested..
If, as we keep hearing, Foster has access to the right cattle and the problem is his poor game plan, tactics, competitor analysis and instilling confidence in his team, then I don't buy the "new bloke needs more time" argument to affect a big improvement - especially if the new bloke has a track record of winning. 9 Tests is more than enough and I'd be hearing alarm bells if there's no visible progress after 6.
The "needs more time" argument, sounds like an excuse and aren't we out of those?
He has little to no lead in time before heading to the Republic. I think some leeway is called for.
Moffett must be reading the Fern!!!!
I agree with Moffett.
@nostrildamus Agree also and nothing an Aussie coming straight out and telling it like it is.
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It’s not the gate that is the problem.
The ABs are the flagship brand for NZR. Essentially they pay for most things. If that brand starts to diminish then it will affect broadcasting right, sponsorships and further investment.
The ABs becoming also rans is the doomsday scenario for the NZR
@DaGrubster that too.
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Removing an Assistant Coach would be just the type of half-pie solution that would appeal to Mark Robinson and the NZRU...
And will achieve nothing, the weight of public opinion (mainly very visible through social media) because of poor results will mean that change will happen.
Fozzie’s position is now untenable - virtually the whole country wants him gone and the media are saying the same thing. It’s basically publicly available information for any investor/sponsor to read.
He cannot be expected to be at his best (don’t laugh!) or get the best out of his squad under this kind of scrutiny and pressure. He wouldn’t be able to without it tbh
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@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Daffy-Jaffy said in Foster must go:
But I don't understand. Rennie is a brilliant coach...
It’s also about your opponents. 16 of Rennie’s 23 games have been France, England, New Zealand and South Africa. Not much padding going on there,
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@Victor-Meldrew It's a high performance role, and the standards should be high. if they're not met, changes should happen. That requires a significant change from the NZRU, who gave us a debacle of a selection process then appointed a coach without successful head coaching experience, then extended his contract far further that they should have based on nothing.
To go from that to dropping someone in the deep end taking over a rabble with bugger-all prep before SA in SA and then judging them on that would be fish-tailing. There should be a sensible middle ground, with clear goals, and a little leeway for the short notice.
Regardless the current coaches have to go. Not only is there no visible improvement, they are going backwards.@reprobate said in Foster must go:
There should be a sensible middle ground, with clear goals, and a little leeway for the short notice.
9 Tests to see some significant approval seems more than reasonable to me.
Regardless the current coaches have to go. Not only is there no visible improvement, they are going backwards.
And we should apply exactly the same criteria to any new coaches after the November EOYT.
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When looking at improvement i think you'd need to look at how they are playing not just purely results - especially when the new coach would be asked to go Africa for 2 tests straight away.
The problem with Foster isn't just the results - it's how they are playing.
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What is an acceptable win rate in this ultra-competitive environment? France with 73% is the high water mark, perhaps we just need to accept that the Henry/Hansen area will likely never be repeated and if we go to the Nations League system, we will play the top teams once every year. With such competition I don't think we can except the dominance we once had.
I think for me a goal should be 70% and the losses are close and we can see a gameplan etc.
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@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
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What is an acceptable win rate in this ultra-competitive environment? France with 73% is the high water mark, perhaps we just need to accept that the Henry/Hansen area will likely never be repeated and if we go to the Nations League system, we will play the top teams once every year. With such competition I don't think we can except the dominance we once had.
I think for me a goal should be 70% and the losses are close and we can see a gameplan etc.
@chimoaus For Fozzie to be up with Hansen and Henry he basically only needs to have won four games that he didn't.
Cards have a bit more influence on outcomes than in the Henry era especially, but it's not hard to find Foster games that a better coach would have won.
The TAB pretty clearly thought Saturday's game. The loss to the Argies. The first draw vs Australia. Any loss to Australia.
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@chimoaus For Fozzie to be up with Hansen and Henry he basically only needs to have won four games that he didn't.
Cards have a bit more influence on outcomes than in the Henry era especially, but it's not hard to find Foster games that a better coach would have won.
The TAB pretty clearly thought Saturday's game. The loss to the Argies. The first draw vs Australia. Any loss to Australia.
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@Chris-B if blenheim's favorite son Jamie Joe was coaching the Abs in any of those games then the results would've been flipped is what you're saying
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@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
@JC said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
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@JC said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
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One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
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@JC said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
isnt that part of the role though?
@Bovidae which is all well and good, but is this stopping him from making some hard calls? His job is the 1st part, he can be mates after, and professional players need to know he is thier 'boss' first, and mate second too, and decisions he has to make, are in the interest of the team, not personal.
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One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
He wasn't there in 2015.
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@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
He wasn't there in 2015.
@Frye said in Foster must go:
@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
He wasn't there in 2015.
Yes he was. Foster has been an assistant since 2012.
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@Catogrande said in Foster must go:
@TheMojoman said in Foster must go:
Foster by the numbers - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300639756/the-charts-that-put-ian-fosters-all-blacks-coaching-record-in-sharp-perspective
Looking at those stats, you have to feel a bit sorry for the flak that Vodanovich is getting on here. 40% of his tests were against a very good Lions side I think.
He wasn't rated by the players from what I've read. According to them, his idea of coaching was to simply train the team to exhaustion and hope for the best tactics-wise on the day. Zero innovation.
There was a huge exodus of experienced players from the AB's after the 1970 tour and some have given him as the reason. IIRC Chris Laidlaw was particularly scathing.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Catogrande said in Foster must go:
@TheMojoman said in Foster must go:
Foster by the numbers - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300639756/the-charts-that-put-ian-fosters-all-blacks-coaching-record-in-sharp-perspective
Looking at those stats, you have to feel a bit sorry for the flak that Vodanovich is getting on here. 40% of his tests were against a very good Lions side I think.
He wasn't rated by the players from what I've read. According to them, his idea of coaching was to simply train the team to exhaustion and hope for the best tactics-wise on the day. Zero innovation.
There was a huge exodus of experienced players from the AB's after the 1970 tour and some have given him as the reason. IIRC Chris Laidlaw was particularly scathing.
McLean said something along the lines that he took away a rugby team and came back with a team of cross country runners.
The one that is quite interesting to me is JJ Stewart, who was very highly regarded.
The team he took to SA played some good rugby, but a major stumbling point was not having a decent goalkicker who could make the test side (Lozza was that man). We ended up using Sid Going and Bryan Williams and they were terrible - my memory says way below 50 percent.
It was only at that point in our rugby history that we learned (almost conclusively) that a good goalkicker is a necessity. We've occasionally flirted with substandard ones since.
