All Blacks 2023
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@Chester-Draws I agree about BB. His form has fallen off a cliff. He's a shadow of his former self right now. But he wouldn't be the first AB to appear bang average in SR only to come good in black. I'm highly sceptical of that happening though
@canefan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chester-Draws I agree about BB. His form has fallen off a cliff. He's a shadow of his former self right now. But he wouldn't be the first AB to appear bang average in SR only to come good in black. I'm highly sceptical of that happening though
Trouble is that Dan and Richie were also like this at times then came right.
I suspect that BBs problem is confidence though and how does that come back? Unless he clears his mind and plays a coule of blinders for the Blues at the pointy end the ABs might risk him finding his feet in black. -
@Victor-Meldrew I was pointing out what he did, and that change was unlikely.
That Foster's team won in South Africa isn't a huge proof that his player selection and strategies are good. If they were, they wouldn't have been in a "must win" position to start with.
I recall pretty much the same thing being said about Carter pre-RWC2015. Was Hansen wrong to pick him?He had no choice, did he? Cruden was injured, and while some of Carter's form had dropped away, he started from so much higher than everyone else. I would have started a fully fit Cruden over Carter, but the decision to play Carter was obvious.
I would argue that picking Sam Cane is similar to the Carter situation. There are potential other selections, all of whom are playing well. Cane had a poor season last year, but again from a high starting point. Picking him might not be everyone's choice, but it's not mental.
Beauden Barrett's decline is not in the same league as Carter's nor Cane's. Not even close. He is stinking out his Super Rugby team, and shouldn't be starting for them, let alone the All Blacks.
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:
He had no choice, did he? Cruden was injured, and while some of Carter's form had dropped away, he started from so much higher than everyone else. I would have started a fully fit Cruden over Carter, but the decision to play Carter was obvious.
Not quite the point I was making. There was a fair bit of criticism in Carter's selection - regardless of injuries to other players - which echoes what is being said about BB right now. Foster's hoping BB will come right is equally valid and has the same type of risk in Hansen hoping Carter would re-capture his form.
That said, I'm pretty ambivalent about the bloke being selected.
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:
He had no choice, did he? Cruden was injured, and while some of Carter's form had dropped away, he started from so much higher than everyone else. I would have started a fully fit Cruden over Carter, but the decision to play Carter was obvious.
Not quite the point I was making. There was a fair bit of criticism in Carter's selection - regardless of injuries to other players - which echoes what is being said about BB right now. Foster's hoping BB will come right is equally valid and has the same type of risk in Hansen hoping Carter would re-capture his form.
That said, I'm pretty ambivalent about the bloke being selected.
@Victor-Meldrew I thought Dan was more around niggly injuries than his form, which IIRC he at least showed he was still up to it more often than not, whereas BB seems to have only glimpses of his former self, but could be a confidence issue.
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BB isn't going to be left at home, let's accept that.
Big question is if he is persevered with as a starter.
On current form he is neither the best fullback or the best bench 10/15 option apart from experience@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
BB isn't going to be left at home, let's accept that.
Big question is if he is persevered with as a starter.
On current form he is neither the best fullback or the best bench 10/15 option apart from experienceat most i think id take him and let him break some records against minos to give others a rest
I dont think BB has earned the same slack that DC did, I feel lots of his stand out games have been off the bench earlier in his career against tired opposition or fleeting moments of unbelievable brilliance and then 70 mins of ok to good, a far cry from DC defining what a 10 can do against the Lions
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
BB isn't going to be left at home, let's accept that.
Big question is if he is persevered with as a starter.
On current form he is neither the best fullback or the best bench 10/15 option apart from experienceat most i think id take him and let him break some records against minos to give others a rest
I dont think BB has earned the same slack that DC did, I feel lots of his stand out games have been off the bench earlier in his career against tired opposition or fleeting moments of unbelievable brilliance and then 70 mins of ok to good, a far cry from DC defining what a 10 can do against the Lions
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
BB isn't going to be left at home, let's accept that.
Big question is if he is persevered with as a starter.
On current form he is neither the best fullback or the best bench 10/15 option apart from experienceat most i think id take him and let him break some records against minos to give others a rest
I dont think BB has earned the same slack that DC did, I feel lots of his stand out games have been off the bench earlier in his career against tired opposition or fleeting moments of unbelievable brilliance and then 70 mins of ok to good, a far cry from DC defining what a 10 can do against the Lions
To ditch him from the starting XV there needs to be evidence that the alternative is better.
That means that Stevenson and/or Jordan need opportunities to show out (or the JB at 12 setup is shelved)
Ideally one of these guys prove themselves and BB/DMac fight out the bench spot -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
BB isn't going to be left at home, let's accept that.
Big question is if he is persevered with as a starter.
On current form he is neither the best fullback or the best bench 10/15 option apart from experienceat most i think id take him and let him break some records against minos to give others a rest
I dont think BB has earned the same slack that DC did, I feel lots of his stand out games have been off the bench earlier in his career against tired opposition or fleeting moments of unbelievable brilliance and then 70 mins of ok to good, a far cry from DC defining what a 10 can do against the Lions
To ditch him from the starting XV there needs to be evidence that the alternative is better.
That means that Stevenson and/or Jordan need opportunities to show out (or the JB at 12 setup is shelved)
Ideally one of these guys prove themselves and BB/DMac fight out the bench spot@Crucial i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level, those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...those positions with question marks we have to pick the form SRP player in that position
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@Crucial i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level, those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...those positions with question marks we have to pick the form SRP player in that position
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level, those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...those positions with question marks we have to pick the form SRP player in that position
But the decision will be made by someone responsible and accountable, not a "roll the dice" punter (no offence). The toss up will be known vs unknown and that could depend on BB himself.
If, as the known quality, he isnt showing the attributes/form of the past that could force the decision to the unknown. If he is showing a trend toward regaining that past form, the known could be the lower risk option. -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial i find my self in the camp of its too late for players to prove themselves at international level, those that already have (savea, JB at 12, tight five etc) great...those positions with question marks we have to pick the form SRP player in that position
But the decision will be made by someone responsible and accountable, not a "roll the dice" punter (no offence). The toss up will be known vs unknown and that could depend on BB himself.
If, as the known quality, he isnt showing the attributes/form of the past that could force the decision to the unknown. If he is showing a trend toward regaining that past form, the known could be the lower risk option.@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
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@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
Apologies if that wasnt written well. The point was more that the selectors will be risk averse with the responsibility they hold. They may well think like us but that thinking will be tempered.
As for Super/Test we have had lots of examples of Super players that shine there but don't do as well at tests. RM, Bridge, Frizzell, Akira, Clarke...... sometimes you even get the opposite. -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
Apologies if that wasnt written well. The point was more that the selectors will be risk averse with the responsibility they hold. They may well think like us but that thinking will be tempered.
As for Super/Test we have had lots of examples of Super players that shine there but don't do as well at tests. RM, Bridge, Frizzell, Akira, Clarke...... sometimes you even get the opposite.@Crucial of course they will, agreed thats a given, i had long ago moved onto the thought experiment, "what if..?"
of course lots of players dont kick on....but we were sure the ones that did kick on were going too until they tried...so until theyre selected super rugby is all we have to judge them
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
Apologies if that wasnt written well. The point was more that the selectors will be risk averse with the responsibility they hold. They may well think like us but that thinking will be tempered.
As for Super/Test we have had lots of examples of Super players that shine there but don't do as well at tests. RM, Bridge, Frizzell, Akira, Clarke...... sometimes you even get the opposite.@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
Apologies if that wasnt written well. The point was more that the selectors will be risk averse with the responsibility they hold. They may well think like us but that thinking will be tempered.
As for Super/Test we have had lots of examples of Super players that shine there but don't do as well at tests. RM, Bridge, Frizzell, Akira, Clarke...... sometimes you even get the opposite.Sorry to butt in but your argument defeats itself.
Based on his record Foster does need to think more radically, he chooses players with clear issues at Super Rugby level that are exposed at international level, and his current tactics have been quickly found out and dealt with (such as by the Irish), plus he has little to lose given he leaves after the RWC, doesn't have a great legacy, is relying on ageing or fading players, hasn't gelled in many combinations of note (maybe the front row?) and above all doesn't have a reputation that needs defending.
If anything, something new is probably what AB RWC chances need. -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
Apologies if that wasnt written well. The point was more that the selectors will be risk averse with the responsibility they hold. They may well think like us but that thinking will be tempered.
As for Super/Test we have had lots of examples of Super players that shine there but don't do as well at tests. RM, Bridge, Frizzell, Akira, Clarke...... sometimes you even get the opposite.@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
Apologies if that wasnt written well. The point was more that the selectors will be risk averse with the responsibility they hold. They may well think like us but that thinking will be tempered.
As for Super/Test we have had lots of examples of Super players that shine there but don't do as well at tests. RM, Bridge, Frizzell, Akira, Clarke...... sometimes you even get the opposite.Ma'a Nonu has entered the chat
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial super rugby is more broken than i thought if it considered so different to international that picking people based on form is a complete roll of the dice....no its not exactly the same...but i think we have a good idea of what people can do...this is why people say its harder to get out of the AB's than into it....
I do realise im not making the decision....do you think anyone on here actually gets a say? i didn't think we had to caveat every post with that, i have also said several times i 100% expect fozzie to select all the same people baring injury inforced changes, kind of thought we were all just chatting about what we would do or what we would LIKE to see
Apologies if that wasnt written well. The point was more that the selectors will be risk averse with the responsibility they hold. They may well think like us but that thinking will be tempered.
As for Super/Test we have had lots of examples of Super players that shine there but don't do as well at tests. RM, Bridge, Frizzell, Akira, Clarke...... sometimes you even get the opposite.Sorry to butt in but your argument defeats itself.
Based on his record Foster does need to think more radically, he chooses players with clear issues at Super Rugby level that are exposed at international level, and his current tactics have been quickly found out and dealt with (such as by the Irish), plus he has little to lose given he leaves after the RWC, doesn't have a great legacy, is relying on ageing or fading players, hasn't gelled in many combinations of note (maybe the front row?) and above all doesn't have a reputation that needs defending.
If anything, something new is probably what AB RWC chances need.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
If anything, something new is probably what AB RWC chances need.
Correct, but Foster won't do anything radical. Even with all the shit results he rolls out the 'we just need to All Black betterer' line similar to what Cheika used to - 'we're almost there'.
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BB isn't going to be left at home, let's accept that.
Big question is if he is persevered with as a starter.
On current form he is neither the best fullback or the best bench 10/15 option apart from experience@Crucial dont think anyone seriously thinks he wont go, sure some think he doesnt deserve to, but surely most know he will be on the plane.
I think the difference in the past was many players out of form, did step up in the AB environment, they thrived and pretty much played as we expected, Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons, or at least hasnt previously, but maybe he was playing the looooooong game with the RWC as his sole goal
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@Crucial dont think anyone seriously thinks he wont go, sure some think he doesnt deserve to, but surely most know he will be on the plane.
I think the difference in the past was many players out of form, did step up in the AB environment, they thrived and pretty much played as we expected, Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons, or at least hasnt previously, but maybe he was playing the looooooong game with the RWC as his sole goal
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons
is this actually true?
A lot of players have come in and played bloody good. Telea, Ioane, Barretts J & S, Smith, Savea, Papali'i, Whitelock, The new front rowers.
Are we just creating yet another stick to beat foster and excuse the precious players from any criticism.
It's not BB's fault, the coach just hasn't been able to push his buttons
It's not Mo'unga's fault, the coach won't let him play his natural game, put the right players around him, or any of the other bullshit i have heard
It's not Havili's fault, the coach can't get the best out of him.Maybe these guys just aren't very good, either at this level, or any more, and the real stick is that Foster (like many other coaches) seems to put a lot of weight in "form is temporary , class is permanent" which just is not true. Class very much has an expiry date.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons
is this actually true?
A lot of players have come in and played bloody good. Telea, Ioane, Barretts J & S, Smith, Savea, Papali'i, Whitelock, The new front rowers.
Are we just creating yet another stick to beat foster and excuse the precious players from any criticism.
It's not BB's fault, the coach just hasn't been able to push his buttons
It's not Mo'unga's fault, the coach won't let him play his natural game, put the right players around him, or any of the other bullshit i have heard
It's not Havili's fault, the coach can't get the best out of him.Maybe these guys just aren't very good, either at this level, or any more, and the real stick is that Foster (like many other coaches) seems to put a lot of weight in "form is temporary , class is permanent" which just is not true. Class very much has an expiry date.
@mariner4life thats how I see it, we have also had players come in after being in good form, look shit.
I just don't know that he has the ability to get the best out of his players as a group.
Some of the tests last year were the worst I have witnessed, something def wasn't right, and for the most part I felt this was the mental part, which is where him, his coaches and to an extent his leadership group are key
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@Crucial dont think anyone seriously thinks he wont go, sure some think he doesnt deserve to, but surely most know he will be on the plane.
I think the difference in the past was many players out of form, did step up in the AB environment, they thrived and pretty much played as we expected, Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons, or at least hasnt previously, but maybe he was playing the looooooong game with the RWC as his sole goal
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial dont think anyone seriously thinks he wont go, sure some think he doesnt deserve to, but surely most know he will be on the plane.
I think the difference in the past was many players out of form, did step up in the AB environment, they thrived and pretty much played as we expected, Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons, or at least hasnt previously, but maybe he was playing the looooooong game with the RWC as his sole goal
Without wanting the thread to become “Fat Foster 2” don’t forget the disruption to the plan for this RWC cycle.
21 was meant to be identification with 22 consolidation. That didn’t go entirely to plan and decisions on backing some players had to be made with a “light” SRA.
Not making excuses just saying that it wasn’t as normal a cycle for NZ as expected and some hurdles came up which may have impacted us. Absolutely it is the coaches job to get over those hurdles but they still existed.
There’s always players that drift in form and calls need to be made. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Foster doesnt seem to be able to push those buttons
is this actually true?
A lot of players have come in and played bloody good. Telea, Ioane, Barretts J & S, Smith, Savea, Papali'i, Whitelock, The new front rowers.
Are we just creating yet another stick to beat foster and excuse the precious players from any criticism.
It's not BB's fault, the coach just hasn't been able to push his buttons
It's not Mo'unga's fault, the coach won't let him play his natural game, put the right players around him, or any of the other bullshit i have heard
It's not Havili's fault, the coach can't get the best out of him.Maybe these guys just aren't very good, either at this level, or any more, and the real stick is that Foster (like many other coaches) seems to put a lot of weight in "form is temporary , class is permanent" which just is not true. Class very much has an expiry date.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
is this actually true?
A lot of players have come in and played bloody good. Telea, Ioane, Barretts J & S, Smith, Savea, Papali'i, Whitelock, The new front rowers.I hope your insight is better than your grammar.
Telea-hasn't been there long enough to learn bad habits.
Ioane-which one? Both heavily criticised on here.
Barretts J & S-also criticized on here and arguably 2023 JB has dipped at FB from the earlier version. Arguably he is now a TF fave at 12 but that was a move that Foster explicitly resisted.
Smith-ups and downs like an up and down thing given his high standard, and didn't he thank another coach for his return to form/running/confidence?
Savea-when he doesn't play from the playbook.
Papali'i-not when moved to 6 he didn't.
Whitelock-um, I'm not convinced Sam lets the coaches tell him what to do.
The new front rowers-thanks to Ian Foster or Jason Ryan?
Hmm, maybe George, I'll give you George.Are we just creating yet another stick to beat foster and excuse the precious players from any criticism.
You must read a different forum to the one I read. It's a seething den of equality here, everyone gets beaten. Only the frequency varies.
