All Blacks 2024
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I would have thought that was the role of the forwards coaching setup. SW as a mentor, good idea.
Hall on the rugby pod suggesting that it is a Razor strategy for getting a voice in the room who he trusts that can provide back room advice and mentoring.
Hall has essentially said that at the end of the day it’s about his relationship with Razor.
In some ways, I think that it’s great that Razor values his experience so much, but it’s also worrying that he doesn’t seem to be confident of developing that culture without a player who has left.
I not sure it's about not being confident of developing culture etc (that's all jsut assumption anyway why they think is why he wants Sam), but more I would think use every weapon at your disposal. It's not so much culture as anyway I think ,as helping players make decisions on field. I have said before I pleased that coaches do this, he won't last to WC, but tests we play until then are still imprtant.
If Robertson wants SW in a coaching/mentoring role, then great. If he wants him back as a player to help make decisions on the field, then the question is why Robertson doesn't have faith in the current crop of non-retired senior ABs to do this.
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If Robertson wants SW in a coaching/mentoring role, then great. If he wants him back as a player to help make decisions on the field, then the question is why Robertson doesn't have faith in the current crop of non-retired senior ABs to do this.
@Victor-Meldrew my concern with Razor supposedly 'chasing' Whitelock, is the message it sends to the next crop of players.
As above, if he's the best, fine, but he would need to be clearly the best.
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The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level, and believes they are best to do that for him. As I said earlier, the lack of international coaching experience may expose him - Super rugby and test rugby are so far apart these days, e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
TBH this isn't what I expected of him. I thought he was the guy that could take any team and make them greater than the sum of their parts. Starting to think Whitelock has been the brains at the Crusaders?
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The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level, and believes they are best to do that for him. As I said earlier, the lack of international coaching experience may expose him - Super rugby and test rugby are so far apart these days, e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
TBH this isn't what I expected of him. I thought he was the guy that could take any team and make them greater than the sum of their parts. Starting to think Whitelock has been the brains at the Crusaders?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level
Or it's about our shallow depth currently at 10 and at lock.
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
We haven't even heard Razor speak about the Whitelock piece yet.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Is William Harmon too old to be in the mix?
i would love it if Harmon was 3 year younger...but 29 at the start of a world cup cycle it a big call...when there are other very good options
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For the scrum loving Ferners, the question is who would be the TH lock?
Patty T has never really excelled there. Lord and Vaa’i both LH. Holland there for Clan. Not sure Chch locks are candidates. Nor Canes.
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
For the scrum loving Ferners, the question is who would be the TH lock?
Patty T has never really excelled there. Lord and Vaa’i both LH. Holland there for Clan. Not sure Chch locks are candidates. Nor Canes.
Some of the locks have switched depending on who they are playing with. For example, Whitelock was the LH lock when playing with Retallick but moved to TH lock when paired with Barrett. IIRC Vaa'i was on the TH side and Lord on the LH side against the Highlanders. I didn't take much notice with Barrett this year (in combination with Strange).
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@Victor-Meldrew my concern with Razor supposedly 'chasing' Whitelock, is the message it sends to the next crop of players.
As above, if he's the best, fine, but he would need to be clearly the best.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew my concern with Razor supposedly 'chasing' Whitelock, is the message it sends to the next crop of players.
Maybe it's a lack of confidence or nerves from getting the big gig and wanting a sense of familiarity. Understandable.
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The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level, and believes they are best to do that for him. As I said earlier, the lack of international coaching experience may expose him - Super rugby and test rugby are so far apart these days, e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
TBH this isn't what I expected of him. I thought he was the guy that could take any team and make them greater than the sum of their parts. Starting to think Whitelock has been the brains at the Crusaders?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
Or razor is the coach that could make him a superstar at test level. Bit early to be slinging arrows yet.
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The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level, and believes they are best to do that for him. As I said earlier, the lack of international coaching experience may expose him - Super rugby and test rugby are so far apart these days, e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
TBH this isn't what I expected of him. I thought he was the guy that could take any team and make them greater than the sum of their parts. Starting to think Whitelock has been the brains at the Crusaders?
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
what? this is literally the first time ive heard anyone suggest Richie was only average at test level....is this a thing?
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If Robertson wants SW in a coaching/mentoring role, then great. If he wants him back as a player to help make decisions on the field, then the question is why Robertson doesn't have faith in the current crop of non-retired senior ABs to do this.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
If Robertson wants SW in a coaching/mentoring role, then great. If he wants him back as a player to help make decisions on the field, then the question is why Robertson doesn't have faith in the current crop of non-retired senior ABs to do this.
Not sure it's about not having faith etc, more about using all tools in your box? Ti me tests this year and next are as important as WC, and I think he has to be prepared to do whatever he has to win tests. See I not into this he 35 so no good anymore, same as I not into the other side of the coin.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
what? this is literally the first time ive heard anyone suggest Richie was only average at test level....is this a thing?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
what? this is literally the first time ive heard anyone suggest Richie was only average at test level....is this a thing?
LOL you been living under a rock? He was better last year but outside that he's been average (average international level) not great but OK, never gripping it. There has been all sorts of reasons given, like not been given the total keys with Beaudy around, or playing behind the rolls royce pack of the crusaders (RIP) an ABs forwards did not dominate the same way, but this has been the narrative for ever!
A quick google gives this article from 2021, from Rugby365 site
OPINION: For the past four seasons, Richie Mo’unga has been one of, if not the best performer at Super Rugby level.
The prodigiously talented first five has at times made a mockery of defences and he’s continued that excellent form into 2021.
Despite his impressive showings for the Crusaders, however, Mo’unga has never replicated that form at Test rugby level.
Since his debut in 2017, Mo’unga has started 16 matches for the All Blacks in the pivot role but his form in the black jersey would best be described as adequate – which is nowhere the level he’s proven himself capable of when representing the Super Rugby champions.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
e.g. Richie was a superstar at Super rugby, probably the best ever, but was really just bog standard at test level as it's a different ball game.
what? this is literally the first time ive heard anyone suggest Richie was only average at test level....is this a thing?
LOL you been living under a rock? He was better last year but outside that he's been average (average international level) not great but OK, never gripping it. There has been all sorts of reasons given, like not been given the total keys with Beaudy around, or playing behind the rolls royce pack of the crusaders (RIP) an ABs forwards did not dominate the same way, but this has been the narrative for ever!
A quick google gives this article from 2021, from Rugby365 site
OPINION: For the past four seasons, Richie Mo’unga has been one of, if not the best performer at Super Rugby level.
The prodigiously talented first five has at times made a mockery of defences and he’s continued that excellent form into 2021.
Despite his impressive showings for the Crusaders, however, Mo’unga has never replicated that form at Test rugby level.
Since his debut in 2017, Mo’unga has started 16 matches for the All Blacks in the pivot role but his form in the black jersey would best be described as adequate – which is nowhere the level he’s proven himself capable of when representing the Super Rugby champions.
@Machpants Oh!!!
my mind went to SIR Richie....rather than richie...id already forgotten about him :cat_face_with_tears_of_joy: ....ignore me
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@Machpants Oh!!!
my mind went to SIR Richie....rather than richie...id already forgotten about him :cat_face_with_tears_of_joy: ....ignore me
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Machpants Oh!!!
my mind went to SIR Richie....rather than richie....ignore me
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level
Or it's about our shallow depth currently at 10 and at lock.
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
We haven't even heard Razor speak about the Whitelock piece yet.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level
Or it's about our shallow depth currently at 10 and at lock.
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
We haven't even heard Razor speak about the Whitelock piece yet.
I don't think our depth is as shallow as people are making out, especially at lock.
We haven't had a world class 10 in a long time, which is a big reason we have struggled of late. Relaxing rules so a bog-standard test 10 can still play for the ABs is absolutely bonkers and comes across as a bit desperate.
On lock there are stacks of names being bandied about that have the potential to fill the huge holes SW and Brodie leave. We also already have a world class lock in SB.
We just made the RWC final and should have won bar a couple of missed penalties. We now have a few players retiring, and the core of the team remaining, like all teams around the world. We don't need to panic and start relaxing rules or begging players in their twilight to come back. We should be looking at the talent we have available and developing that.
I completely agree with this though:
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
However I am far too impatient to wait for that
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level
Or it's about our shallow depth currently at 10 and at lock.
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
We haven't even heard Razor speak about the Whitelock piece yet.
I don't think our depth is as shallow as people are making out, especially at lock.
We haven't had a world class 10 in a long time, which is a big reason we have struggled of late. Relaxing rules so a bog-standard test 10 can still play for the ABs is absolutely bonkers and comes across as a bit desperate.
On lock there are stacks of names being bandied about that have the potential to fill the huge holes SW and Brodie leave. We also already have a world class lock in SB.
We just made the RWC final and should have won bar a couple of missed penalties. We now have a few players retiring, and the core of the team remaining, like all teams around the world. We don't need to panic and start relaxing rules or begging players in their twilight to come back. We should be looking at the talent we have available and developing that.
I completely agree with this though:
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
However I am far too impatient to wait for that
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I completely agree with this though:
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
However I am far too impatient to wait for that
Also, where is the fun in that?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
The concern for me is Robertson built his team around Richie and Sam, so him chasing them and talking about relaxing the rules for overseas players makes me think he's just going to try and implement his Crusaders game plan at test level
Or it's about our shallow depth currently at 10 and at lock.
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
We haven't even heard Razor speak about the Whitelock piece yet.
I don't think our depth is as shallow as people are making out, especially at lock.
We haven't had a world class 10 in a long time, which is a big reason we have struggled of late. Relaxing rules so a bog-standard test 10 can still play for the ABs is absolutely bonkers and comes across as a bit desperate.
On lock there are stacks of names being bandied about that have the potential to fill the huge holes SW and Brodie leave. We also already have a world class lock in SB.
We just made the RWC final and should have won bar a couple of missed penalties. We now have a few players retiring, and the core of the team remaining, like all teams around the world. We don't need to panic and start relaxing rules or begging players in their twilight to come back. We should be looking at the talent we have available and developing that.
I completely agree with this though:
How about we wait and see how the ABs actually play before jumping to conclusions.
However I am far too impatient to wait for that
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I don't think our depth is as shallow as people are making out, especially at lock.
I think part of the problem is that Sam W and BBBR almost arrived perfectly formed at AB level, and now we expect all locks too.
I think we'll Dane Coles some locks, as in we'll pick them, give them proper regular gametime and they'll be the business.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I don't think our depth is as shallow as people are making out, especially at lock.
I think part of the problem is that Sam W and BBBR almost arrived perfectly formed at AB level, and now we expect all locks too.
I think we'll Dane Coles some locks, as in we'll pick them, give them proper regular gametime and they'll be the business.
@Nepia also, SW, BR and SB all have/had huge motors, meaning they could play alot of minutes, menaing there was often no need to blood the next lot, particulalrly in a RWC year.
Fozzie was also coppin gheat due to losses so was obviously playing his best lineup as often as he could, that I guess from his point (and probably fairly) meant his intention was to try to win rather than worry about what happens next year.
That said, but for his injury, I think Lord would have played alot more minutes, plenty of expectation levelled at him.
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With Lord or Vai'i at lock, who are both not very physical, two big bruisers are going to be needed in the loose forwards. Akira Ioane is making a very good comeback and I would not be against a trio made of Finau - Savea - Ioane, with Sotutu or Papa'ali on the bench.
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I still think that Josh Lord and Fabian Holland will be our next version of Sam W and BBR, don't want clones of those 2 but just think these 2 have age etc to end up forming a long partnership at lock.
Potentially mate they could be.
I think all of this speculation from some newspaper articles is just that. Speculation.
If Whitelock doesn’t want to extend his contract then he will be looking for another gig and I am sure having a discussion with Razor about coming back is an option for him, amongst others.
I can see the benefit of bringing him back for the next 2 years - he could still provide lots of experience off the bench, starting at a pinch and mentor a number of young locks that are coming through and be a de facto lineout/lock coach.
As you say, the next 2 years are important for Razor to establish himself in international rugby and give him the platform for the lead up to and including the next RWC, and he is looking at all the tools he can use to make him successful, especially in a short term problem area of locking depth.
Look at Fozzie after 2 years - should have been sacked and it caused civil war in rugby circles.
Razor would do well to avoid the same scenario so I see no issue with him having discussions with ex-players and giving himself the best chance of being successful. Let’s face it, this year is a brutal test schedule.
Where would we rather be? Winning 14/tests with Sam Whitelock playing 30 minutes of 10 of those games as they blood Lord and Darry further?
Or winning 9 out of 15 games but thankfully we didn’t waste any money on a lock who is past it?
