All Blacks 2024
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not convinced that Cane is appreciably slower than Papali'i. He gets into the wide channels pretty damn well based on the last two outings. He's practically light speed compared to the glacial Blackadder.
You can play either of them but that's not where the issue lies.
Right, so now EB is not only ineffective but he doesn't actually get anywhere.
Despite all the stats showing him making a shitload of tackles and carries - stats which are, y'know, kinda hard to rack up without being where the ball is.
Did you watch him ponderously cover and get burned? Or where a front rower left him behind chasing a kick in support? He's fucking slow. Like gumboots in mud slow.
His lack of pace is indefensible.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not convinced that Cane is appreciably slower than Papali'i. He gets into the wide channels pretty damn well based on the last two outings. He's practically light speed compared to the glacial Blackadder.
You can play either of them but that's not where the issue lies.
Right, so now EB is not only ineffective but he doesn't actually get anywhere.
Despite all the stats showing him making a shitload of tackles and carries - stats which are, y'know, kinda hard to rack up without being where the ball is.
Did you watch him ponderously cover and get burned? Or where a front rower left him behind chasing a kick in support? He's fucking slow. Like gumboots in mud slow.
His lack of pace is indefensible.
Well fuck me, that reflects pretty badly on all these players who are faster than him. I guess they must be using their extra pace to get out of the way so they don't have to make tackles or carries.
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@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
Mate, what Foster did or didn't do 3 years ago has got bugger all to do with current AB problems.
We've gone from losing RWC 2023 to SA by one point with (14 men) to blowing a 27-14 lead at 68 minutes to lose 31-27 to SA. (And before you start throwing the "loss of experienced players" bullshit, both sides had 13 of their 23 at the RWC on that day)
How the fuck you regard that as progress or proof that we're playing better rugby overall under Robertson is beyond me.
Was 2020 too far back for you to remember?
Or 2021?Do you remember our first 2 years of Foster? Compared to Razors first year
Genuinely do people not watch the games?
From 2020-21 I distinctly remember us having no attacking shape whatsoever.
We would do one off runners from the halfback (2009 Bulls style), we wouldn't make meters, and then we'd box kick.
That's ALL we did for those 2 years until Schmidt joined and actually started introducing some shape to our attack.
Do people genuinely not remember how horrid this time was??
Even 2022-23 we still seemingly gave up on getting around the rush defense and instead committed to pick and go and one off runners smashing it up.
The antithesis of what our core skill-sets are and not leveraging what we have above all other countries.
We're only 3 months in with this new coaching setup and we have beaten and got around the rush defense more times in these 7 games than we managed the last 4 years.
Once we tidy up our phase play 5-10 metres out from the opposition try line and are more clinical in that area we're going to start putting up big scores against teams that have been troubling us this last decade.
The saying 'Cant see the Forest for the trees' comes to mind here with some of the criticism towards our performances thus far.
LOL we don’t have anything over all other countries, man.
not any more with the way Tests play out.
Going back in time, it was the ball playing of our tight forwards that was the difference. Other sides have caught up there though, and we cant open the game up in the last 20 with superior fitness and skills any more.
So yeah.
@nzzp caught up, gone past and we have regressed.
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"Hopefully enough people to tip it over into the harbour if we lose this one"
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not convinced that Cane is appreciably slower than Papali'i. He gets into the wide channels pretty damn well based on the last two outings. He's practically light speed compared to the glacial Blackadder.
You can play either of them but that's not where the issue lies.
Right, so now EB is not only ineffective but he doesn't actually get anywhere.
Despite all the stats showing him making a shitload of tackles and carries - stats which are, y'know, kinda hard to rack up without being where the ball is.
Did you watch him ponderously cover and get burned? Or where a front rower left him behind chasing a kick in support? He's fucking slow. Like gumboots in mud slow.
His lack of pace is indefensible.
Well fuck me, that reflects pretty badly on all these players who are faster than him. I guess they must be using their extra pace to get out of the way so they don't have to make tackles or carries.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not convinced that Cane is appreciably slower than Papali'i. He gets into the wide channels pretty damn well based on the last two outings. He's practically light speed compared to the glacial Blackadder.
You can play either of them but that's not where the issue lies.
Right, so now EB is not only ineffective but he doesn't actually get anywhere.
Despite all the stats showing him making a shitload of tackles and carries - stats which are, y'know, kinda hard to rack up without being where the ball is.
Did you watch him ponderously cover and get burned? Or where a front rower left him behind chasing a kick in support? He's fucking slow. Like gumboots in mud slow.
His lack of pace is indefensible.
Well fuck me, that reflects pretty badly on all these players who are faster than him. I guess they must be using their extra pace to get out of the way so they don't have to make tackles or carries.
Probably busy using their speed to get onside after he makes his passive tackles...
The problem with using statistics without qualifiers is neatly summed up by asking chatgpt to rank players based on the stats available at https://super.rugby/therugbychampionship/fixtures/
Here’s a ranking of New Zealand players based on both attack and defense statistics, combining key attack metrics (meters gained, carries) and defense metrics (tackles made, tackle completion):
Combined Ranking (Attack and Defense):
Savea- Attack: 44 meters, 18 carries, 5 defenders beaten, 2 clean breaks, 5 points
- Defense: 12 tackles, 100% tackle completion
Jordan
- Attack: 84 meters, 9 carries, 3 defenders beaten, 2 clean breaks, 10 points
- Defense: 4 tackles, 66.67% tackle completion
Blackadder
- Attack: 14 meters, 7 carries, 7 passes, 1 offload
- Defense: 20 tackles, 86.96% tackle completion, 2 turnovers won
Barrett (Beauden)
- Attack: 36 meters, 7 carries, 4 defenders beaten, 1 clean break, 2 try assists
- Defense: 8 tackles, 80% tackle completion
Now does that correlate with what people recall from the first game against South Africa..?
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Fuck Roy Keane
Dirty, dirty c*unt
Don't want any of his 'morals' in rugby union thank you very much
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Fuck Roy Keane
Dirty, dirty c*unt
Don't want any of his 'morals' in rugby union thank you very much
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Fuck Roy Keane
Dirty, dirty c*unt
Don't want any of his 'morals' in rugby union thank you very much
In itself, a fair enough point of view .... but is this responding to something?
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks 2024:
Fuck Roy Keane
Dirty, dirty c*unt
Don't want any of his 'morals' in rugby union thank you very much
In itself, a fair enough point of view .... but is this responding to something?
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Why have the ABs become more beatable over the years? The IP has been given away to rivals who now know how to prepare for them.
In recent times:
Exhibit A - Joe Schmidt with Ireland.
Exhibit B - Gatland with the Lions.
Exhibit C - Tony Brown with the Boks
Professionalism has negated the strengths NZ once had. Players and coaches go to the highest bidder. The ABs need to develop a new culture, a new DNA that binds the players, coaches and fans together again. Tricky spot to be in. I feel revolution is in the air, because evolution is not working.
That picture disgusts me.
They are cozying up and condescending in equal measure. It's all mind games. Like Kolisi saying he was "so proud of Ardie". It puts you on a pedestal above the person you're paying the compliment to.
I actually do like the Roy Keane style......he hates lads shaking hands in the tunnel before games and swapping shirts on the pitch after a bad loss etc. Youre supposed to be going into battle.
In the first test in Ellis park Rieko got bundled into touch unceremoniously by De Allende.
Rieko was flat on his back and stuck his hand up for De Allende to pick him up.
De Allende just left him there and strode off with flared nostrils and chest puffed out.We are carrying on like we are the little brother in the fight.
Sure grab a beer with your opposite number in the sheds, but this Kolisi shite of the arm round the shoulder of Sititi giving it the old "well done young man you played well, keep the head down and work hard and youll go places". its a load of nonsense. You should be trying to break his ribs every time he gets the ball.
They are killing us with kindness while the knife is in the back. You wouldnt see them pulling stunts like that with Brad Thorn or Jerome Kaino.
Its mans work out there and we need to step up.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Why have the ABs become more beatable over the years? The IP has been given away to rivals who now know how to prepare for them.
In recent times:
Exhibit A - Joe Schmidt with Ireland.
Exhibit B - Gatland with the Lions.
Exhibit C - Tony Brown with the Boks
Professionalism has negated the strengths NZ once had. Players and coaches go to the highest bidder. The ABs need to develop a new culture, a new DNA that binds the players, coaches and fans together again. Tricky spot to be in. I feel revolution is in the air, because evolution is not working.
That picture disgusts me.
They are cozying up and condescending in equal measure. It's all mind games. Like Kolisi saying he was "so proud of Ardie". It puts you on a pedestal above the person you're paying the compliment to.
I actually do like the Roy Keane style......he hates lads shaking hands in the tunnel before games and swapping shirts on the pitch after a bad loss etc. Youre supposed to be going into battle.
In the first test in Ellis park Rieko got bundled into touch unceremoniously by De Allende.
Rieko was flat on his back and stuck his hand up for De Allende to pick him up.
De Allende just left him there and strode off with flared nostrils and chest puffed out.We are carrying on like we are the little brother in the fight.
Sure grab a beer with your opposite number in the sheds, but this Kolisi shite of the arm round the shoulder of Sititi giving it the old "well done young man you played well, keep the head down and work hard and youll go places". its a load of nonsense. You should be trying to break his ribs every time he gets the ball.
They are killing us with kindness while the knife is in the back. You wouldnt see them pulling stunts like that with Brad Thorn or Jerome Kaino.
Its mans work out there and we need to step up.
This is what I was referencing re: Roy Keane @MajorRage
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https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-press/20240911/282162181589113
According to this article it appears that talk of Dmac's departure is premature.
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Why have the ABs become more beatable over the years? The IP has been given away to rivals who now know how to prepare for them.
In recent times:
Exhibit A - Joe Schmidt with Ireland.
Exhibit B - Gatland with the Lions.
Exhibit C - Tony Brown with the Boks
Professionalism has negated the strengths NZ once had. Players and coaches go to the highest bidder. The ABs need to develop a new culture, a new DNA that binds the players, coaches and fans together again. Tricky spot to be in. I feel revolution is in the air, because evolution is not working.
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Why have the ABs become more beatable over the years? The IP has been given away to rivals who now know how to prepare for them.
In recent times:
Exhibit A - Joe Schmidt with Ireland.
Exhibit B - Gatland with the Lions.
Exhibit C - Tony Brown with the Boks
Exhibit D - Dave Rennie with Australia
Exhibit E - Kieran Crowley with Canada…
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@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Fozzie never lost a Rugby Championship
Foster only had ONE actual full RC with home and away.
2020 - no SA
2021 - no away games to SA or ARG because of COVID
2022 - the only proper RC, we had two games in SA and the 2nd test win was the decider for the entire RC, a wins a win but that match was an anomaly, the players going all out in a freak match knowing full and well that a loss would mean their coach being Sacked
2023 - shortened RC, only 3 games, and 2 of them against SA/AUS we were at home.
Razor with the current team wins each one of these.
The Foster revisionism is truly amazing.
Says the bloke coming up with an alternative universe to his liking.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The Foster revisionism is truly amazing.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
The Foster revisionism is truly amazing.Says the bloke coming up with an alternative universe to his liking.
Every time I see somebody claiming "revisionism" - I think... "ahhh, here we go - this is going to be some classic historical fiction".
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not convinced that Cane is appreciably slower than Papali'i. He gets into the wide channels pretty damn well based on the last two outings. He's practically light speed compared to the glacial Blackadder.
You can play either of them but that's not where the issue lies.
Right, so now EB is not only ineffective but he doesn't actually get anywhere.
Despite all the stats showing him making a shitload of tackles and carries - stats which are, y'know, kinda hard to rack up without being where the ball is.
Did you watch him ponderously cover and get burned? Or where a front rower left him behind chasing a kick in support? He's fucking slow. Like gumboots in mud slow.
His lack of pace is indefensible.
Well fuck me, that reflects pretty badly on all these players who are faster than him. I guess they must be using their extra pace to get out of the way so they don't have to make tackles or carries.
Probably busy using their speed to get onside after he makes his passive tackles...
The problem with using statistics without qualifiers is neatly summed up by asking chatgpt to rank players based on the stats available at https://super.rugby/therugbychampionship/fixtures/
Here’s a ranking of New Zealand players based on both attack and defense statistics, combining key attack metrics (meters gained, carries) and defense metrics (tackles made, tackle completion):
Combined Ranking (Attack and Defense):
Savea- Attack: 44 meters, 18 carries, 5 defenders beaten, 2 clean breaks, 5 points
- Defense: 12 tackles, 100% tackle completion
Jordan
- Attack: 84 meters, 9 carries, 3 defenders beaten, 2 clean breaks, 10 points
- Defense: 4 tackles, 66.67% tackle completion
Blackadder
- Attack: 14 meters, 7 carries, 7 passes, 1 offload
- Defense: 20 tackles, 86.96% tackle completion, 2 turnovers won
Barrett (Beauden)
- Attack: 36 meters, 7 carries, 4 defenders beaten, 1 clean break, 2 try assists
- Defense: 8 tackles, 80% tackle completion
Now does that correlate with what people recall from the first game against South Africa..?
@antipodean that looks more like the problem with using chatGPT to interpret stats to me.
I know what I'm seeing - and that's a guy with a big work-rate making a heap of tackles and carries. That's backed up by the stats.
What you are seeing is an alleged 'ineffective' which can't really be backed up with any data publicly available, and anecdote of certain game situations where he's looked slow which frankly is worthless.
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
Secondly, I'm quicker than Jerry Collins, but I wouldn't have been a great selection ahead of him on the flank.
Some of rugby is a short sprint game, but loose forward play is more like a bronco test. EB won't do great at the former, but will do well at the latter. -
@antipodean that looks more like the problem with using chatGPT to interpret stats to me.
I know what I'm seeing - and that's a guy with a big work-rate making a heap of tackles and carries. That's backed up by the stats.
What you are seeing is an alleged 'ineffective' which can't really be backed up with any data publicly available, and anecdote of certain game situations where he's looked slow which frankly is worthless.
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
Secondly, I'm quicker than Jerry Collins, but I wouldn't have been a great selection ahead of him on the flank.
Some of rugby is a short sprint game, but loose forward play is more like a bronco test. EB won't do great at the former, but will do well at the latter.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
nah, he's just slow
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
nah, he's just slow
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
nah, he's just slow
It's not like he's playing on the wing bro.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
nah, he's just slow
It's not like he's playing on the wing bro.
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
nah, he's just slow
It's not like he's playing on the wing bro.
Look, there's a lot to like with him, but he's very limited. And before he got picked my mate was talking about his lack of speed. For a loosie, he's slow - and that goes to a bunch of thigns including carrying. For a loose trio, Savea's got some wheels, but otherwise you're scratching around. It's unbalanced and kind of weird as a trio.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
nah, he's just slow
It's not like he's playing on the wing bro.
Look, there's a lot to like with him, but he's very limited. And before he got picked my mate was talking about his lack of speed. For a loosie, he's slow - and that goes to a bunch of thigns including carrying. For a loose trio, Savea's got some wheels, but otherwise you're scratching around. It's unbalanced and kind of weird as a trio.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
nah, he's just slow
It's not like he's playing on the wing bro.
Look, there's a lot to like with him, but he's very limited. And before he got picked my mate was talking about his lack of speed. For a loosie, he's slow - and that goes to a bunch of thigns including carrying. For a loose trio, Savea's got some wheels, but otherwise you're scratching around. It's unbalanced and kind of weird as a trio.
Agree totally on the trio and lack of balance.
SC and LJ look slow for loosies to me too - and I have heard EB's bronco times are very good for a forward. But all players are limited in some respect - even McCaw was not the best ball runner, didn't have the best hands, wasn't the greatest lineout target. I just find it weird that EB's effectiveness and now pace are gone on and on about when the alternative (and guy who was given the first chance) in SF just totally went missing.
Does anyone genuinely think that Finau (or Jacobson) replacing Blackadder is going to fix the ABs? -
@antipodean that looks more like the problem with using chatGPT to interpret stats to me.
I know what I'm seeing - and that's a guy with a big work-rate making a heap of tackles and carries. That's backed up by the stats.
What you are seeing is an alleged 'ineffective' which can't really be backed up with any data publicly available, and anecdote of certain game situations where he's looked slow which frankly is worthless.
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
Secondly, I'm quicker than Jerry Collins, but I wouldn't have been a great selection ahead of him on the flank.
Some of rugby is a short sprint game, but loose forward play is more like a bronco test. EB won't do great at the former, but will do well at the latter.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean that looks more like the problem with using chatGPT to interpret stats to me.
I know what I'm seeing - and that's a guy with a big work-rate making a heap of tackles and carries. That's backed up by the stats.
What you are seeing is an alleged 'ineffective' which can't really be backed up with any data publicly available, and anecdote of certain game situations where he's looked slow which frankly is worthless.I get it, my (and others') observations are worthless. Yours are awesome.
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
He hadn't.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean that looks more like the problem with using chatGPT to interpret stats to me.
I know what I'm seeing - and that's a guy with a big work-rate making a heap of tackles and carries. That's backed up by the stats.
What you are seeing is an alleged 'ineffective' which can't really be backed up with any data publicly available, and anecdote of certain game situations where he's looked slow which frankly is worthless.I get it, my (and others') observations are worthless. Yours are awesome.
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
He hadn't.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean that looks more like the problem with using chatGPT to interpret stats to me.
I know what I'm seeing - and that's a guy with a big work-rate making a heap of tackles and carries. That's backed up by the stats.
What you are seeing is an alleged 'ineffective' which can't really be backed up with any data publicly available, and anecdote of certain game situations where he's looked slow which frankly is worthless.I get it, my (and others') observations are worthless. Yours are awesome.
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
He hadn't.
Yeah, mine are just mine, and yours are just yours. You don't really need to be snarky about it.
The coaches do pick him of course - so that's at least a couple of (and others').Do you genuinely think that Finau (or Jacobson) replacing Blackadder is going to fix the ABs?
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@antipodean that looks more like the problem with using chatGPT to interpret stats to me.
I know what I'm seeing - and that's a guy with a big work-rate making a heap of tackles and carries. That's backed up by the stats.
What you are seeing is an alleged 'ineffective' which can't really be backed up with any data publicly available, and anecdote of certain game situations where he's looked slow which frankly is worthless.I get it, my (and others') observations are worthless. Yours are awesome.
Firstly, maybe he was slow because he had just made 3 tackles and the other player hadn't?
He hadn't.
Yeah, mine are just mine, and yours are just yours. You don't really need to be snarky about it.
The coaches do pick him of course - so that's at least a couple of (and others').Do you genuinely think that Finau (or Jacobson) replacing Blackadder is going to fix the ABs?
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Do you genuinely think that Finau (or Jacobson) replacing Blackadder is going to fix the ABs?
I've previously explained my solution for the backrow and it's not confined to replacing Blackadder.
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I have a theory that Blackadder exhausts himself trying to be everywhere like McCaw was, and as a result is not effective when he does make a tackle or hit a ruck, as he's gassed. Also means when there's a breakout he can't keep up.
