All Blacks 2024
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Start using Paps, put Sititi at 8. Bring on Ratima- Roigard combo
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
100% this.
What has happened to the Allblack "entity" or "brand" that we are chasing after Mo'unga and Frizell like lovesick teenagers, while also trying to nurse Sam Cane and TJP through an EOYT?
Similarly we have the likes of Beaudy, Ardie and ALB racking up caps like they are Allblack greats.
When did we become so desperate and how have our stocks become so callow?
We are deifying players who on recent form dont deserve the adulation.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
100% this.
What has happened to the Allblack "entity" or "brand" that we are chasing after Mo'unga and Frizell like lovesick teenagers, while also trying to nurse Sam Cane and TJP through an EOYT?
Similarly we have the likes of Beaudy, Ardie and ALB racking up caps like they are Allblack greats.
When did we become so desperate and how have our stocks become so callow?
We are deifying players who on recent form dont deserve the adulation.
That the Crusaders are slowly bringing in overseas players - and now at first five - feels quite telling about the headspace and development stocks of NZ rugby.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
Last year I thought DMac was the best and most consistent flyhalf in NZ
As did I, but I think in reality people need to kind of put the provincial biases aside.
I think we are just in a really bad place collectively.To me it looks like our centres arent up to much. Our fly halves arent up to much. Our Backrow isnt up to much. And it doesnt seem to matter which ones we select.
Sititi is exempt from the above criticism, and may have only got his chance anyway thanks to Ethan getting injured.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
Last year I thought DMac was the best and most consistent flyhalf in NZ
As did I, but I think in reality people need to kind of put the provincial biases aside.
I think we are just in a really bad place collectively.To me it looks like our centres arent up to much. Our fly halves arent up to much. Our Backrow isnt up to much. And it doesnt seem to matter which ones we select.
Sititi is exempt from the above criticism, and may have only got his chance anyway thanks to Ethan getting injured.
Who would have thought ?
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 Saw this today, Frizzel and Mounga are being chased.
Exactly what everyone who watched this year said: we're missing Richie and Shannon.
FFS
Frizzell would be a bonus,.
Did you watch the rwc final? 1 tackle, 1 miss in the entire time he was in the pitch, a lot of that when he was one of only 2 loose forwards. Worst loose forward performance by an ab ever.
He's had one great half in his entire career
Not entirely fair.
2 x good games by my reckoning...
...
But not worth chasing beyond what we've got in hand.
Same goes for Fly Half Jesus ...
It's not as if we're chasing prime Kaino and mid-career Carter.
Let them go and develop the next dudes.
100% this.
What has happened to the Allblack "entity" or "brand" that we are chasing after Mo'unga and Frizell like lovesick teenagers, while also trying to nurse Sam Cane and TJP through an EOYT?
Similarly we have the likes of Beaudy, Ardie and ALB racking up caps like they are Allblack greats.
When did we become so desperate and how have our stocks become so callow?
We are deifying players who on recent form dont deserve the adulation.
That the Crusaders are slowly bringing in overseas players - and now at first five - feels quite telling about the headspace and development stocks of NZ rugby.
It's lazy.
NZ Rugby has become very conservative favouring experienced has beens over young talent.
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Can see us going after at least one league player before 2027. Manu would have to get a contract in NZ of course, won't have a lot of time. Someone like Warbrick could be a target, the opportunity for him to represent the All Blacks in addition to Rugby 7s, Aussie Rules, NRL would be the stuff of legends, he has the talent to do it. What is Ngani doing next year is he going back to league or could he have another stint at rugby in New Zealand?
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Can see us going after at least one league player before 2027. Manu would have to get a contract in NZ of course, won't have a lot of time. Someone like Warbrick could be a target, the opportunity for him to represent the All Blacks in addition to Rugby 7s, Aussie Rules, NRL would be the stuff of legends, he has the talent to do it. What is Ngani doing next year is he going back to league or could he have another stint at rugby in New Zealand?
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
Can see us going after at least one league player before 2027. Manu would have to get a contract in NZ of course, won't have a lot of time. Someone like Warbrick could be a target, the opportunity for him to represent the All Blacks in addition to Rugby 7s, Aussie Rules, NRL would be the stuff of legends, he has the talent to do it. What is Ngani doing next year is he going back to league or could he have another stint at rugby in New Zealand?
My vote would go to Rocco Berry, would be good to get another son of an All Black in the team.
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
Can see us going after at least one league player before 2027. Manu would have to get a contract in NZ of course, won't have a lot of time. Someone like Warbrick could be a target, the opportunity for him to represent the All Blacks in addition to Rugby 7s, Aussie Rules, NRL would be the stuff of legends, he has the talent to do it. What is Ngani doing next year is he going back to league or could he have another stint at rugby in New Zealand?
My vote would go to Rocco Berry, would be good to get another son of an All Black in the team.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
Can see us going after at least one league player before 2027. Manu would have to get a contract in NZ of course, won't have a lot of time. Someone like Warbrick could be a target, the opportunity for him to represent the All Blacks in addition to Rugby 7s, Aussie Rules, NRL would be the stuff of legends, he has the talent to do it. What is Ngani doing next year is he going back to league or could he have another stint at rugby in New Zealand?
My vote would go to Rocco Berry, would be good to get another son of an All Black in the team.
Doesn't play like his Dad though sadly, he's not very physical. I scratch my head that he's a favourite of the coaches at the Warriors.
Manu is the guy I'd want to see have a crack at it, pity he's probably left it too late but if he enjoys his season in Japan he may be a chance.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
Can see us going after at least one league player before 2027. Manu would have to get a contract in NZ of course, won't have a lot of time. Someone like Warbrick could be a target, the opportunity for him to represent the All Blacks in addition to Rugby 7s, Aussie Rules, NRL would be the stuff of legends, he has the talent to do it. What is Ngani doing next year is he going back to league or could he have another stint at rugby in New Zealand?
My vote would go to Rocco Berry, would be good to get another son of an All Black in the team.
Doesn't play like his Dad though sadly, he's not very physical. I scratch my head that he's a favourite of the coaches at the Warriors.
Manu is the guy I'd want to see have a crack at it, pity he's probably left it too late but if he enjoys his season in Japan he may be a chance.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
Can see us going after at least one league player before 2027. Manu would have to get a contract in NZ of course, won't have a lot of time. Someone like Warbrick could be a target, the opportunity for him to represent the All Blacks in addition to Rugby 7s, Aussie Rules, NRL would be the stuff of legends, he has the talent to do it. What is Ngani doing next year is he going back to league or could he have another stint at rugby in New Zealand?
My vote would go to Rocco Berry, would be good to get another son of an All Black in the team.
Doesn't play like his Dad though sadly, he's not very physical. I scratch my head that he's a favourite of the coaches at the Warriors.
Manu is the guy I'd want to see have a crack at it, pity he's probably left it too late but if he enjoys his season in Japan he may be a chance.
Rocco is a guy who seems to keep very busy without enough impact. Might be Razor's kind of guy...
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If Razor's idea of coaching and development is to wait until his favourite players return from overseas we have a big problem
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
If Razor's idea of coaching and development is to wait until his favourite players return from overseas we have a big problem
One of the reasons I was really keen to have him coaching the ABs was his ability to coach and develop players, which he did right through his tenure at the Crusaders.
Would be good if he remembered that part of his skillset
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Bit of an open question
say we have a passable EOYT, no real hidings, maybe lose one or two, win the rest....what will Razor have achieved this year?
i dont feel he's done much of anything to build for the future, largely his selections have fallen on the "experience" side of the fence ...we've also lost the freedom cup and RC
what was the pass mark?
i feel at the start of the season i was thinking we would either
a ) all change, squad picked on form or potential, might win some, might lose some....but we start developing for the future
b ) safe selections but new game plan, one thing at a time (might be the safest best to get results)
c ) new blood but trying to implement the old attack from anywhere game plan betterI could have understood all three approaches
but i feel like what we've got is by and large
d ) lots of the same people doing a lot of the same things we've seen before...and still not winning
which seems like the worst of all worlds
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Bit of an open question
say we have a passable EOYT, no real hidings, maybe lose one or two, win the rest....what will Razor have achieved this year?
i dont feel he's done much of anything to build for the future, largely his selections have fallen on the "experience" side of the fence ...we've also lost the freedom cup and RC
what was the pass mark?
i feel at the start of the season i was thinking we would either
a ) all change, squad picked on form or potential, might win some, might lose some....but we start developing for the future
b ) safe selections but new game plan, one thing at a time (might be the safest best to get results)
c ) new blood but trying to implement the old attack from anywhere game plan betterI could have understood all three approaches
but i feel like what we've got is by and large
d ) lots of the same people doing a lot of the same things we've seen before...and still not winning
which seems like the worst of all worlds
Pretty much.
I expected the results we've had but a lot more development.
I was hoping for a return to more specialised roles in the loose forwards like we had with McCaw, Kaino and Read but instead we have the opposite.
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I think the next 6 weeks are going to be a reality check for a lot of people. It's not going to be pretty.
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the next 6 weeks are going to be a reality check for a lot of people. It's not going to be pretty.
I've got the exact same thought except in the opposite direction.
I think we will be much more efficient at actually finishing the many chances we created and will go through unbeaten with a bunch of the young and some of the old players combining for some Beautiful rugby reminiscent of the 2004-15 era.
The doomsdayers will be in the forum proclaiming they were right all along and that only now that Razor is doing what they said are we winning.
When in reality, the gameplan we've been building and refining all year and getting the players accustomed to was always going to take a few tests to iron out, as well as picking specific players while omitting some provincial favourites that don't fit in this new system.
(in saying that, regarding the squad I'd prefer Havili out for Higgins, Reece or Telea out for Narawa, perhaps the thought was they want those players getting game time with the XVs squad.. hopefully)
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the next 6 weeks are going to be a reality check for a lot of people. It's not going to be pretty.
I've got the exact same thought except in the opposite direction.
I think we will be much more efficient at actually finishing the many chances we created and will go through unbeaten with a bunch of the young and some of the old players combining for some Beautiful rugby reminiscent of the 2004-15 era.
The doomsdayers will be in the forum proclaiming they were right all along and that only now that Razor is doing what they said are we winning.
When in reality, the gameplan we've been building and refining all year and getting the players accustomed to was always going to take a few tests to iron out, as well as picking specific players while omitting some provincial favourites that don't fit in this new system.
(in saying that, regarding the squad I'd prefer Havili out for Higgins, Reece or Telea out for Narawa, perhaps the thought was they want those players getting game time with the XVs squad.. hopefully)
@kpkanz what IS the new system?
my feeling is we're seeing a lot of the same play as we have for the last +4 year, at most its an evolution....but then i wonder if its an evolution....with lots of the same people involved...whats taking so to click?
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Bit of an open question
say we have a passable EOYT, no real hidings, maybe lose one or two, win the rest....what will Razor have achieved this year?
i dont feel he's done much of anything to build for the future, largely his selections have fallen on the "experience" side of the fence ...we've also lost the freedom cup and RC
what was the pass mark?
i feel at the start of the season i was thinking we would either
a ) all change, squad picked on form or potential, might win some, might lose some....but we start developing for the future
b ) safe selections but new game plan, one thing at a time (might be the safest best to get results)
c ) new blood but trying to implement the old attack from anywhere game plan betterI could have understood all three approaches
but i feel like what we've got is by and large
d ) lots of the same people doing a lot of the same things we've seen before...and still not winning
which seems like the worst of all worlds
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@Kiwiwomble I think the ambitious aim this year should have been to recapture the number 1 world ranking, but moving up in the rankings would have been acceptable.
@sparky i might have taken having a chance of winning the Rugby Championship going into the last weekend and one or two new faces
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the next 6 weeks are going to be a reality check for a lot of people. It's not going to be pretty.
I've got the exact same thought except in the opposite direction.
I think we will be much more efficient at actually finishing the many chances we created and will go through unbeaten with a bunch of the young and some of the old players combining for some Beautiful rugby reminiscent of the 2004-15 era.
The doomsdayers will be in the forum proclaiming they were right all along and that only now that Razor is doing what they said are we winning.
When in reality, the gameplan we've been building and refining all year and getting the players accustomed to was always going to take a few tests to iron out, as well as picking specific players while omitting some provincial favourites that don't fit in this new system.
(in saying that, regarding the squad I'd prefer Havili out for Higgins, Reece or Telea out for Narawa, perhaps the thought was they want those players getting game time with the XVs squad.. hopefully)
@kpkanz I agree, although going unbeaten on the EOYT will obviously be a big ask.
We are solid in scrums and lineouts so it's a good base to work from.
Disappointed Lakai's not there as he would benefit from the tour.
Paps needs some meaningful minutes against the top tier. -
@kpkanz what IS the new system?
my feeling is we're seeing a lot of the same play as we have for the last +4 year, at most its an evolution....but then i wonder if its an evolution....with lots of the same people involved...whats taking so to click?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz what IS the new system?
my feeling is we're seeing a lot of the same play as we have for the last +4 year, at most its an evolution....but then i wonder if its an evolution....with lots of the same people involved...whats taking so to click?
Not at all. Our attack shape is entirely different.
We didn't have the amount of different lines from support players, the very late passing right at the defense, the general width we are able to reach this year.
It was obvious from the first game how different our attack shape is.
The issue last cycle is we genuinely had the worst attack shape in international rugby. We sent our players out there with nothing to work with but hope one of them breaks a tackle or gets lucky.
The most aggressive defensive systems feasted on us (Ireland/France) while also resulting in much more pressure on the defensive end since we were applying none on the offensive end.
It's no surprise over half of all our wins last cycle were against Australia since they have the old passive defensive system which allows our players to just rely on instinct and find space playing heads up. No intricate lines from runners or late passing required to create the space, their defensive line already provided it.
That's why I'm excited for the first time in years because our attack actually looks more sophisticated and like there has been actual thought put into it. I think we will see the benefits this northern tour.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz what IS the new system?
my feeling is we're seeing a lot of the same play as we have for the last +4 year, at most its an evolution....but then i wonder if its an evolution....with lots of the same people involved...whats taking so to click?
Not at all. Our attack shape is entirely different.
We didn't have the amount of different lines from support players, the very late passing right at the defense, the general width we are able to reach this year.
It was obvious from the first game how different our attack shape is.
The issue last cycle is we genuinely had the worst attack shape in international rugby. We sent our players out there with nothing to work with but hope one of them breaks a tackle or gets lucky.
The most aggressive defensive systems feasted on us (Ireland/France) while also resulting in much more pressure on the defensive end since we were applying none on the offensive end.
It's no surprise over half of all our wins last cycle were against Australia since they have the old passive defensive system which allows our players to just rely on instinct and find space playing heads up. No intricate lines from runners or late passing required to create the space, their defensive line already provided it.
That's why I'm excited for the first time in years because our attack actually looks more sophisticated and like there has been actual thought put into it. I think we will see the benefits this northern tour.
@kpkanz ok, another question, for the sake of argument lets say i concede the point on our attack structure
do we think its a good move to be implementing it with players like BB and TJP, its obviously a big jump for these guys if it hasn;t quite clicked after 9 tests...are we going to go through this again next year or the year after with the next generation? should he have taken all the pain this year and gone with youth?
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@kpkanz ok, another question, for the sake of argument lets say i concede the point on our attack structure
do we think its a good move to be implementing it with players like BB and TJP, its obviously a big jump for these guys if it hasn;t quite clicked after 9 tests...are we going to go through this again next year or the year after with the next generation? should he have taken all the pain this year and gone with youth?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz ok, another question, for the sake of argument lets say i concede the point on our attack structure
do we think its a good move to be implementing it with players like BB and TJP, its obviously a big jump for these guys if it hasn;t quite clicked after 9 tests...are we going to go through this again next year or the year after with the next generation? should he have taken all the pain this year and gone with youth?
I imagine Razor wanted to keep the oldheads in for a few tests to nurture/tutor the new young ones that are being brought in.
Tbh I feel like that old group of players is nearly tainted by the losses and horrible records they had over the years. Guys like Ratima/Sititi have come in as if they deserve the win no matter who theyre playing which has been really refreshing.
So I think TJ will be gone after this tour, Razor even hinted at this being the case by talking about TJ/Canes 'roles' on this tour to teach the kids about what it means to be in the ABs and what it means to Tour etc.
As for BB, his last start at 10 recently I think was just to rest Dmac since he'd played every game this year. I don't expect BB to have any serious shot at being the starting 10. If he keeps producing large gaps of not producing anything then Jordan will take the fullback role outright over him as well. I think they prefer Jordan/BB as right wing and fullback to have as many 'great' players on the field as they can but if BB doesn't produce regularly enough they may just start having him come off the bench until Love comes of age.
Probably looking at Jordan/Love as the right wing/fullback combo by next year's French tour.
