All Blacks 2024
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
I thought AJ Lam was better at 13 this year than Rieko for the Blues. Rieko did a serviceable job but had a bad concussion in the middle of the season and never got out of 3rd gear in terms of form after that.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
So good they barely scrape past us ...
France have beat us comfortably the previous two times. They had a bunch of key players out in the game we just played and I don't think they got our of third gear.
South Africa beat us with their A team and their B team.
It really is a trend to talk up anyone but NZ.
We had guys out of all those games too.
So what?
They played with their best available and barely scraped past us. It fact France were outplayed for most of the game against us according to the stats. But it is cool to run the ABs down.
It's like listening to early 2000s Radio Sport with Willie Lose on talkback.
Fair point: we expect more from the ABs and they should be performing better given the sum of their parts.
But it just shits me that we can't recognise when we're doing good, and over estimate how well opposition are going.
From what I've read we lost 9 of our tests this year (all 3 v Eng, Ireland, Bled I, plus the four we did actually lose) and probably also lost the other 5 because, well just because we're not 2015 level ...
The only REAL blot was Arg I. And to me that was a failure of expectation. When we got ahead and on top of them we got overexcited and made lazy errors. I said at the time we were 30 pints better than them (and we were), we just let them (kind of insisted they) score a few more than us.
Again, Razor has not YET produced the level of performance we expect, but it's not mid-Fozzie era ineffectuality (not sure if that's a word ... it is now
).I've seen development in our patterns.
I'd like to see:
- DMac at 10 and talk of Mo'unga discontinued
- Revitalised looseforwards
- a reassessment of the midfield. I think the personnel are OK, but a good look at their roles would be handy
- a good look at the back 3, especially looking at 2 guys to join Caleb. Some of the current personnel are good, but need a rocket.
- overall a revitalising, whether that is youth, or just a kick in the arse I don't care.
But back to my original point seeing how I digressed, these seemingly unbeatable behemoths of South Africa, France (and a month ago Ireland and England) are a myth. They're good, but we can beat them as much as they can beat us.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
But back to my original point seeing how I digressed, these seemingly unbeatable behemoths of South Africa, France (and a month ago Ireland and England) are a myth. They're good, but we can beat them as much as they can beat us.
We haven't beaten France since 2018. In the last two years we've won 1 our of 5 tests against South Africa.
How is that beating them just as much as they beat us?
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Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
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Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
@mariner4life expectations should be high. The pieces are there. Time for Razor to earn his corn, select and coach the team to beat down our arch rivals in games at home
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Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
Losing because you're playing away never used to be an excuse for the ABs.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
I can't be bothered doing this properly, but the Blues did give him more space.
Part of it is that he can run off their ball carriers, but another is that they used his speed to come behind the ruck when they change direction, and he would often get that ball as the first receiver much in the same way that Jordan does for the Crusaders.
He was also at first receiver a bit in their pattern as the front runner receiving a wide pass from Christier with Plummer as the behind runner, so if he could get in space he would hold it or pass wide, but could also pass back to Plummer who was on the loop.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
I can't be bothered doing this properly, but the Blues did give him more space.
Part of it is that he can run off their ball carriers, but another is that they used his speed to come behind the ruck when they change direction, and he would often get that ball as the first receiver much in the same way that Jordan does for the Crusaders.
He was also at first receiver a bit in their pattern as the front runner receiving a wide pass from Christier with Plummer as the behind runner, so if he could get in space he would hold it or pass wide, but could also pass back to Plummer who was on the loop.
It depends on what one means with the word 'space'. The Blues may have used him differently, but I still think he was in more traffic than in his previous years at 13.
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Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line.
Because we too often get ourselves into good positions and blow it thru periods of poor play
There isn't a gulf to cross.
Not in terms of players, but I think there is in terms of on-field smarts.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
I can't be bothered doing this properly, but the Blues did give him more space.
Part of it is that he can run off their ball carriers, but another is that they used his speed to come behind the ruck when they change direction, and he would often get that ball as the first receiver much in the same way that Jordan does for the Crusaders.
He was also at first receiver a bit in their pattern as the front runner receiving a wide pass from Christier with Plummer as the behind runner, so if he could get in space he would hold it or pass wide, but could also pass back to Plummer who was on the loop.
It depends on what one means with the word 'space'. The Blues may have used him differently, but I still think he was in more traffic than in his previous years at 13.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
I am not sure about RI getting more space in Super rugby. That's not how the Blues used their midfield. I recall asking Blue's fans during the season if they were happy with RI's form, because I had noticed him being rather inconspicuous. The gist of the replies suggested he was doing the tight stuff.
Also, from memory, RI didn't score a try during the Super Season. That too would suggest he wasn't playing in space.
I can't be bothered doing this properly, but the Blues did give him more space.
Part of it is that he can run off their ball carriers, but another is that they used his speed to come behind the ruck when they change direction, and he would often get that ball as the first receiver much in the same way that Jordan does for the Crusaders.
He was also at first receiver a bit in their pattern as the front runner receiving a wide pass from Christier with Plummer as the behind runner, so if he could get in space he would hold it or pass wide, but could also pass back to Plummer who was on the loop.
It depends on what one means with the word 'space'. The Blues may have used him differently, but I still think he was in more traffic than in his previous years at 13.
Essentially in the current AB attack, he gets the ball and the defender at the same time; anything more than that is 'space'.
Currently they set up gives him far less time to use any of his strengths, and emphasizes his weaknesses (e.g., his hands in traffic which are pretty poor).
If the attack was set up so that he was a front runner in space , it would make sense but that is unlikely with the Barretts shovelling the ball along and us not showing any animation behind to hold defenders. As a result, we don't give Ioane the opportunity to be the front runner who gets the ball with a half yard and weak shoulder and instead he's just a dummy or crash ball merchant. The way we use him kind of highlights the clunkiness of our attack - especially with Barrett at 10.
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you may be right but it feels a bit harsh.
The set piece has been really good, the scrum strong despite newbie front rowers, ad the lineout better than it has any real right to be.
Around the track they've been saved by Sititi I think, and then the running game of Patty T off the bench.They were well beaten by the French pack in the 2nd half a week ago.
My opinion is the use and timing of substitutions has really hurt us. Guys are playing far too many minutes, quality of those minutes be damned. I feel like any sub in the last 10 is a complete waste of a player unless the guy on the field is totally cooked (in which case you have fucked up by not making the switch 10 minutes earlier).
Razor obviously feels that some players need to be on the field no matter what, which is why guys like Taylor, Savea, Cane, ScoBa play big minutes. This totally flies in the face of what appears to be working elsewhere, where fresh forwards are given 30-35 minutes to make a real difference in the game. We stubbornly stick to old school thinking.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
you may be right but it feels a bit harsh.
The set piece has been really good, the scrum strong despite newbie front rowers, ad the lineout better than it has any real right to be.
Around the track they've been saved by Sititi I think, and then the running game of Patty T off the bench.They were well beaten by the French pack in the 2nd half a week ago.
My opinion is the use and timing of substitutions has really hurt us. Guys are playing far too many minutes, quality of those minutes be damned. I feel like any sub in the last 10 is a complete waste of a player unless the guy on the field is totally cooked (in which case you have fucked up by not making the switch 10 minutes earlier).
Razor obviously feels that some players need to be on the field no matter what, which is why guys like Taylor, Savea, Cane, ScoBa play big minutes. This totally flies in the face of what appears to be working elsewhere, where fresh forwards are given 30-35 minutes to make a real difference in the game. We stubbornly stick to old school thinking.
The above says to me that Razor doesn't know how to coach to the talent he has available. If he did, not only would we be getting more change points-wise out of the relative strength of our set piece, but we also wouldn't have sacred cows in the pack who can't be subbed.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
Losing because you're playing away never used to be an excuse for the ABs.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Context matters a bit too though.
Since the 2019 world cup we've played the South Africans 8 times in anger (I'm not counting the RWC warm up exhibition game)
And while the ledger reads 3-5 the points difference is zero (or maybe 1). And we've played them once at home, 4 times in south africa and 3 neutral. That's pretty good against this so called generational SA team.France we haven't played outside France since 2018. And I'll let you guess when the last time they beat us prior to that 2021 win.
We're very close to the equal of any side at the moment but we're just not quite getting over the line. There isn't a gulf to cross.
I would expect us to go close to 5-0 getting to play France and SA in NZ next year.
Losing because you're playing away never used to be an excuse for the ABs.
I agree.
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One area I've been disappointed this year is the quality of our passing - all across the team.
It's really poor.
I believe Strawbridge was around in 2023 as the skills coach
Who is that now?
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
One area I've been disappointed this year is the quality of our passing - all across the team.
It's really poor.
I believe Strawbridge was around in 2023 as the skills coach
Who is that now?
You'd think the guys would know how to pass though?
To me it's related to tight forwards constantly polluting backline movies.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
One area I've been disappointed this year is the quality of our passing - all across the team.
It's really poor.
I believe Strawbridge was around in 2023 as the skills coach
Who is that now?
You'd think the guys would know how to pass though?
To me it's related to tight forwards constantly polluting backline movies.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
One area I've been disappointed this year is the quality of our passing - all across the team.
It's really poor.
I believe Strawbridge was around in 2023 as the skills coach
Who is that now?
You'd think the guys would know how to pass though?
To me it's related to tight forwards constantly polluting backline movies.
TBF, the tight forwards looked way more inventive in the midfield than the actual midfield.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
One area I've been disappointed this year is the quality of our passing - all across the team.
It's really poor.
I believe Strawbridge was around in 2023 as the skills coach
Who is that now?
You'd think the guys would know how to pass though?
To me it's related to tight forwards constantly polluting backline movies.
TBF, the tight forwards looked way more inventive in the midfield than the actual midfield.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
One area I've been disappointed this year is the quality of our passing - all across the team.
It's really poor.
I believe Strawbridge was around in 2023 as the skills coach
Who is that now?
You'd think the guys would know how to pass though?
To me it's related to tight forwards constantly polluting backline movies.
TBF, the tight forwards looked way more inventive in the midfield than the actual midfield.
agreed, my feeling was some of the most deceptive passing was from front rowers droping the ball off before hitting the line, the back were the ones just taking it into contact or dropping it
williams and degroot and several special moment throughout the season
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The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
We are pushing too much when it's not on. There are periods when we are a little more selective and it works well. Especially when we are more direct
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The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
Three posts ago you were arguing that they should know how to pass by now?
The point being made above is that it’s carrying out this skill accurately in traffic, with a rush, while you’re completely fucked, in the pouring rain / freezing fucking cold.
Executing fundamentals as the task difficulty ramps up is crucial, especially if this team wants to play in this manner.
It doesn’t look like they are being prepared effectively or efficiently.
I’ve missed the influence of Nic the kick for years too, I reckon you can clearly see a demarcation point between him leaving the environment and our kicking getting markedly worse.
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The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The passes from the tight forward are 50/50 often going either behind the player losing momentum or not to the player at all.
Sure some come off but half of them put us on the back foot
i dont agree with this, this is exactly the deception that other team are doing that is giving the outside centres and wings space, draw a defended or two, then out the back to a player in motion and put runners in space
