Italy v All Blacks
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I'm going to take a stab at the AB 23 for Italy and see how close we can get:
- E De Groot
- C Taylor
- P Tosi
- S Barrett (C)
- P Tuipolotu
- W Sititi
- S Cane
- A Savea
- C Roigard
- D McKenzie
- C Clarke
- A Leinert-Brown
- R Ioane
- S Reece
- W Jordan
- A Aumua
- O Tu'ungafasi
- F Newell
- J Lord / F Holland
- P Lakai
- T Perenara
- D Havili
- R Love / S Perofeta
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@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
dude, they are your words in your post. i am simply asking you to clarify what you mean. Sam Cane is the best openside in the country right now, and caps are not "wasted" on him. And for all they hype, he is not less able than Lakai, he is far more able.
Now, if you are talking about TJP, who is very lucky to be considered in the top 3 halfbacks in teh country, let alone the top 2, then it is a different conversation. However your post doesn't make that distinction.
(you're not the only one to have a pop at Cane either, but yours was the final straw)
Number All Blacks Rucks under 3s on NH Tour
37 Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
43 England ( Cane starts at 7 )
40 Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
78 France ( Savea starts at 7 )How do you know we wouldn't have lost by more if Cane started?
Here's another way to do stat based selections:
W Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
W England ( Cane starts at 7 )
W Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
L France ( Savea starts at 7 )@antipodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
dude, they are your words in your post. i am simply asking you to clarify what you mean. Sam Cane is the best openside in the country right now, and caps are not "wasted" on him. And for all they hype, he is not less able than Lakai, he is far more able.
Now, if you are talking about TJP, who is very lucky to be considered in the top 3 halfbacks in teh country, let alone the top 2, then it is a different conversation. However your post doesn't make that distinction.
(you're not the only one to have a pop at Cane either, but yours was the final straw)
Number All Blacks Rucks under 3s on NH Tour
37 Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
43 England ( Cane starts at 7 )
40 Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
78 France ( Savea starts at 7 )How do you know we wouldn't have lost by more if Cane started?
Here's another way to do stat based selections:
W Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
W England ( Cane starts at 7 )
W Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
L France ( Savea starts at 7 )None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
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I'm going to take a stab at the AB 23 for Italy and see how close we can get:
- E De Groot
- C Taylor
- P Tosi
- S Barrett (C)
- P Tuipolotu
- W Sititi
- S Cane
- A Savea
- C Roigard
- D McKenzie
- C Clarke
- A Leinert-Brown
- R Ioane
- S Reece
- W Jordan
- A Aumua
- O Tu'ungafasi
- F Newell
- J Lord / F Holland
- P Lakai
- T Perenara
- D Havili
- R Love / S Perofeta
@Canes4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
I'm going to take a stab at the AB 23 for Italy and see how close we can get:
- E De Groot
- C Taylor
- P Tosi
- S Barrett (C)
- P Tuipolotu
- W Sititi
- S Cane
- A Savea
- C Roigard
- D McKenzie
- C Clarke
- A Leinert-Brown
- R Ioane
- S Reece
- W Jordan
- A Aumua
- O Tu'ungafasi
- F Newell
- J Lord / F Holland
- P Lakai
- T Perenara
- D Havili
- R Love / S Perofeta
I would say you've got maybe half the starting XV right, if you ignore what position you've put them in...
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@antipodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
dude, they are your words in your post. i am simply asking you to clarify what you mean. Sam Cane is the best openside in the country right now, and caps are not "wasted" on him. And for all they hype, he is not less able than Lakai, he is far more able.
Now, if you are talking about TJP, who is very lucky to be considered in the top 3 halfbacks in teh country, let alone the top 2, then it is a different conversation. However your post doesn't make that distinction.
(you're not the only one to have a pop at Cane either, but yours was the final straw)
Number All Blacks Rucks under 3s on NH Tour
37 Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
43 England ( Cane starts at 7 )
40 Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
78 France ( Savea starts at 7 )How do you know we wouldn't have lost by more if Cane started?
Here's another way to do stat based selections:
W Japan ( Cane starts at 7 )
W England ( Cane starts at 7 )
W Ireland ( Cane starts at 7 )
L France ( Savea starts at 7 )None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
I'm still frustrated with the French result. We had it.
DMac first five, Love at 15, Jordan and Clarke on the wings. Our attack certainly would've been different with those players.
Anyway it's done -
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
I'm still frustrated with the French result. We had it.
DMac first five, Love at 15, Jordan and Clarke on the wings. Our attack certainly would've been different with those players.
Anyway it's done@BerniesCorner said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
I'm still frustrated with the French result. We had it.
DMac first five, Love at 15, Jordan and Clarke on the wings. Our attack certainly would've been different with those players.
Anyway it's doneNot that I think he was playing a stormer, watching a replay, when we lost Jordie the French backline defence did change. For whatever reason we had a bit more space to work with when he was on. These are small margins but that’s often the difference with these sort of matches. We looked sped up rather than playing more methodical.
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@BerniesCorner said in Italy v All Blacks:
@brodean said in Italy v All Blacks:
None of those teams played as well as France. None of them have the same ceiling.
I'm still frustrated with the French result. We had it.
DMac first five, Love at 15, Jordan and Clarke on the wings. Our attack certainly would've been different with those players.
Anyway it's doneNot that I think he was playing a stormer, watching a replay, when we lost Jordie the French backline defence did change. For whatever reason we had a bit more space to work with when he was on. These are small margins but that’s often the difference with these sort of matches. We looked sped up rather than playing more methodical.
@ACT-Crusader Probably panicking a bit as we had trouble breaking down their defence
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just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
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just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
I actually agree that his time has come. And he won't be there next year, but he is available for one last test and:
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is still our best cleaner and general pest around the breakdown (in other words, he can hold his place based on ability); and
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he is a past AB captain and warrior who we say goodbye to with one last game.
For me, I think one last start is justified.
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@mariner4life my issue with the 'top team' is there is a glaring issue in the 23 jersey. In fact the only player in that spot who has added value this season was Love when he came on vs Japan and scored 2 tries.
I know they need certain cover but there's a real opportunity to look at adding more punch from the bench in the form of Love, Lam etc.
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@mariner4life my issue with the 'top team' is there is a glaring issue in the 23 jersey. In fact the only player in that spot who has added value this season was Love when he came on vs Japan and scored 2 tries.
I know they need certain cover but there's a real opportunity to look at adding more punch from the bench in the form of Love, Lam etc.
Generally speaking midfielders and wingers, just don't impact a game as much, unless the guy playing there is having a bad game... and if the guy is doing his job well, then he should probably stay out there.
15 can impact the game from broken play far more, and obviously 9 and 10 are pivotal... I think this is part of the reason for a shift to the 6-2 split... a second fresh loose forward can impact the game way more than a sub winger who might only touch the ball four teams, and only one of those may actually be in any space to do something.
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just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
@Kiwiwomble said in Italy v All Blacks:
just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
Easy as fans to take the human element out of it. Cane has given loads to the jersey, so would be cruel not to give him a proper send-off. I don't feel the same way about TJ, but can be certain the coaches and most of his teammates do, so likewise, if taken on tour, would be nuts not to give him a final game.
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im not going to die on the hill as cant argue and wont argue with everything he's given to the jersey....but i also think no one person is bigger then the jersey and so dont buy into the idea anyone deserves "one more game", they get their caps at 100 and can have all the off field accolades they like...but the opportunity to build for the future should trump all, if we get to next season and there is chat about the jump from super rugby to playing whom ever is touring in June being too much it will be annoying
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@Kiwiwomble said in Italy v All Blacks:
just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
Easy as fans to take the human element out of it. Cane has given loads to the jersey, so would be cruel not to give him a proper send-off. I don't feel the same way about TJ, but can be certain the coaches and most of his teammates do, so likewise, if taken on tour, would be nuts not to give him a final game.
@frugby said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble said in Italy v All Blacks:
just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
Easy as fans to take the human element out of it. Cane has given loads to the jersey, so would be cruel not to give him a proper send-off. I don't feel the same way about TJ, but can be certain the coaches and most of his teammates do, so likewise, if taken on tour, would be nuts not to give him a final game.
I was about to post something similar. I think it's reasonable to give him a farewell, to allow him to lead the ABs out one last time and all that jazz. He is an ex AB captain that has sacrificed and risked a fair bit over the years, why not say thanks and farewell? We have time.
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@frugby said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble said in Italy v All Blacks:
just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
Easy as fans to take the human element out of it. Cane has given loads to the jersey, so would be cruel not to give him a proper send-off. I don't feel the same way about TJ, but can be certain the coaches and most of his teammates do, so likewise, if taken on tour, would be nuts not to give him a final game.
I was about to post something similar. I think it's reasonable to give him a farewell, to allow him to lead the ABs out one last time and all that jazz. He is an ex AB captain that has sacrificed and risked a fair bit over the years, why not say thanks and farewell? We have time.
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
@frugby said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble said in Italy v All Blacks:
just a question re Cane at 7...whats the aim? he's the best 7 so we want to play him to win?....is there much chance we lose without him? i dont think he alone is standing between us and a win...so its really about giving him one last game? i'd rather someone else got some experience there, games like Italy are one of the few chances people get to bridge the gap between super rugby and big internationals (ie still an international, you get to work on combinations with other AB's....not a long way off SA in SA)
Easy as fans to take the human element out of it. Cane has given loads to the jersey, so would be cruel not to give him a proper send-off. I don't feel the same way about TJ, but can be certain the coaches and most of his teammates do, so likewise, if taken on tour, would be nuts not to give him a final game.
I was about to post something similar. I think it's reasonable to give him a farewell, to allow him to lead the ABs out one last time and all that jazz. He is an ex AB captain that has sacrificed and risked a fair bit over the years, why not say thanks and farewell? We have time.
We've found out that Lakai has ability at this level and we now have: Lakai, Paps, Blackadder, and Savea (if necessary) who can play in 7. It's a not a problemative position, so running out Cane isn't an issue for this test.
He may not be Richie McCaw god-like, but he is a proper AB great, and he was a
fluffybunny hairmissed kick away from being a WC winning captain. I'd like to see him in black one more time. -
Someone just posted this team in the Stuff comments (yes I know it's not reliable) but it's interesting.
AB team: Love, Tele'a, Lam, ALB, Clarke, Perofeta, Perenara, Sititi, Cane, Lakai, Holland, Tuipolotu (c), Tosi, Taylor EDG.
Subs: Williams, Aumua, Ofa, S Barrett, Savea, Roigard, B Barrett, Reiko
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Someone just posted this team in the Stuff comments (yes I know it's not reliable) but it's interesting.
AB team: Love, Tele'a, Lam, ALB, Clarke, Perofeta, Perenara, Sititi, Cane, Lakai, Holland, Tuipolotu (c), Tosi, Taylor EDG.
Subs: Williams, Aumua, Ofa, S Barrett, Savea, Roigard, B Barrett, Reiko
@Canes4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
Someone just posted this team in the Stuff comments (yes I know it's not reliable) but it's interesting.
AB team: Love, Tele'a, Lam, ALB, Clarke, Perofeta, Perenara, Sititi, Cane, Lakai, Holland, Tuipolotu (c), Tosi, Taylor EDG.
Subs: Williams, Aumua, Ofa, S Barrett, Savea, Roigard, B Barrett, Reiko
FFS - I know that Jordan isn't much chop at fullback, but replacing him with the Groot?
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@Canes4life said in Italy v All Blacks:
Someone just posted this team in the Stuff comments (yes I know it's not reliable) but it's interesting.
AB team: Love, Tele'a, Lam, ALB, Clarke, Perofeta, Perenara, Sititi, Cane, Lakai, Holland, Tuipolotu (c), Tosi, Taylor EDG.
Subs: Williams, Aumua, Ofa, S Barrett, Savea, Roigard, B Barrett, Reiko
FFS - I know that Jordan isn't much chop at fullback, but replacing him with the Groot?
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Hey team, sorry again for not getting team/backline naming yet again. Proving to be quite difficult this tour, tight lipped and time difference.
What I can say though(I’ve been told) is that there are going to be some player/players who have gone on this tour that aren’t going to get a game, not including the Japan test. Pretty disappointing if that proves to be true. This tour should be used to get as much info on these new guys where possible and should be playing in these kinds of tests in my opinion.
Thats all I’ve got this week! Let’s see what happens at team naming.
