All Blacks 2025
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@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
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@Chris-B first bok test last year, wasn't it one of the most experienced guys (Ofa) from the bench who got the yellow card?
@reprobate It was. But, we also botched a lineout and gave away a dumb penalty to piggyback the Boks up the field.
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Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France ‘B’ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that “exceptions are possible” for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France ‘B’ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that “exceptions are possible” for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
Realistically how many?
Compare to an All Black Team without C, say, Chiefs and Saders.
Groot
Aumua
Lomax
Paddy T
Holland
Kirifi
Iose
Lakai
Roigard
Barrett
Clarke
Barrett
Ioane/ Proctor
Telea/Lam
Love?
?
Tosi
?
Savea / Papalii
Christie (I know)
Tavatavanawai / Lam / Tangitau / Taele -
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France ‘B’ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that “exceptions are possible” for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
Realistically how many?
Compare to an All Black Team without C, say, Chiefs and Saders.
Groot
Aumua
Lomax
Paddy T
Holland
Kirifi
Iose
Lakai
Roigard
Barrett
Clarke
Barrett
Ioane/ Proctor
Telea/Lam
Love?
?
Tosi
?
Savea / Papalii
Christie (I know)
Tavatavanawai / Lam / Tangitau / Taele@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France ‘B’ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that “exceptions are possible” for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
Realistically how many?
Compare to an All Black Team without C, say, Chiefs and Saders.
Groot
Aumua
Lomax
Paddy T
Holland
Kirifi
Iose
Lakai
Roigard
Barrett
Clarke
Barrett
Ioane/ Proctor
Telea/Lam
Love?
?
Tosi
?
Savea / Papalii
Christie (I know)
Tavatavanawai / Lam / Tangitau / TaeleI think Du Pont is injured, but hopefully Romain Ntamack, Damian Penaud and Louis Bielle-Biarrey come across.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
**Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.**
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
The journeymen were surrounded by the shinies in 2011 in McCaw, Nonu, Smith, Read, Kaino etc ... so let's not go too far down that track Mitch.
In 2007we lost two 10s in the match, and the superstar GOAT subsequently admitted that we made the error of not setting for a droppie and instead played for a penalty.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
**Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.**
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
The journeymen were surrounded by the shinies in 2011 in McCaw, Nonu, Smith, Read, Kaino etc ... so let's not go too far down that track Mitch.
Do you still own that half acre section at Cape Canaveral that's designated as the Andy Ellis Memorial Launchpad?
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
**Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.**
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
The journeymen were surrounded by the shinies in 2011 in McCaw, Nonu, Smith, Read, Kaino etc ... so let's not go too far down that track Mitch.
Do you still own that half acre section at Cape Canaveral that's designated as the Andy Ellis Memorial Launchpad?
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
**Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.**
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
The journeymen were surrounded by the shinies in 2011 in McCaw, Nonu, Smith, Read, Kaino etc ... so let's not go too far down that track Mitch.
Do you still own that half acre section at Cape Canaveral that's designated as the Andy Ellis Memorial Launchpad?
It's fallen into disrepair after a maintenance contract was awarded to Blackadder Corp.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Some good news for the upcoming French series.
The president of the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) has brushed off claims of a France ‘B’ team touring New Zealand in July, giving the strongest indication yet that “exceptions are possible” for some French stars involved in the Top 14 final.
Realistically how many?
Compare to an All Black Team without C, say, Chiefs and Saders.
Groot
Aumua
Lomax
Paddy T
Holland
Kirifi
Iose
Lakai
Roigard
Barrett
Clarke
Barrett
Ioane/ Proctor
Telea/Lam
Love?
?
Tosi
?
Savea / Papalii
Christie (I know)
Tavatavanawai / Lam / Tangitau / Taele -
@mariner4life There's obviously some truth in what you say, but there's also some caveats.
One is that we're never going to have 36 Richie McCaws in our squad. There's always going to be a continuum from the brilliant, to guys on the fringe who you wish were better.
But, that doesn't mean picking the next cab off the rank will be (better). There's got to be a reasonable chance that he will be - otherwise, you're just selecting someone to "give them a go", with a risk that their "difference-making" will be to lose the match for you.
It's pretty rare, IMO, that a brilliant young player gets ignored/missed for long. More likely you're shuffling the third choice and fourth choice guys.
Sometimes, you're just better off with the journeymen. Case in point, 2011 RWC Final.
The Fern would have shot Beaver and Andy Ellis into the sun if they'd had a rocket - but, in the end, they were guys who could do what was necessary.
Contrast to probably 2007 and 2019, where the bright and shiny boys didn't quite have the resilience.
And probably, the first Bok test last year, when we had the winning of the game until the last 10 minutes, when we had to roll out lots of guys with few tests between them and the Boks finished over the top of us.
@Chris-B i feel like you are arguing a point i didn't make.
Not everyone in a rugby team should be a superstar. You need a balance of flash fluffybunnies and workers.
BUT
Just because you are a "worker" doesn't mean you aren't good at core roles. If you are a loose forward worker who doesn't make dominant tackles or move bodies quickly at ruck time, then what good are you? Two of those guys i mentioned fit this to a tee. Work hard? yes. Do effective work once you get there? not so much.
Likewise a back should be able to either distribute the ball well (hand or foot), or be a strong carrier (maybe defender as well), or be fucking quick. I am not sure the back i mentioned brings any of those skills to a high standard.
Even teh workers need to be more than "solid" or that old fucking cliche "won't let you down". I think this is especially true for those earmarked as bench players.
Also Beaver absolutely sums up what i am saying. Beaver was the best 10 in the country when he got the Chiefs to the GF and made the ABs. Turns out he wasn't actually good enough at the next level though and was rightfully rissolled. He was brought back only in the most dire of emergencies, and played the ultimate "limited skillset" game to squeak the narrowest of wins. And was never seen again. The everyman's fairytale.
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@booboo I guess they've got a Top14 and we've got five-and-a-bit Super teams, so hopefully a bit less impact.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Crazy-Horse yeah tough one eh, reckon with our aging and leaving outside backs, there's got to be a punt on some newbies and what better opportunity than a touring french side? Worked wonders just over 20 years ago.
Carter would be an interesting one too, shades of Jane, his "style" might work well at test level.
French series an ideal opportunity to experiment a bit. Not just new ABs, but the likes of Love, Lakai, etc. A give players like QT & Sami T some serious game time.
Don't disagree with you, but there is the obvious problem with NZers not accepting a loss - especially to an under strength side. AB legacy and all that.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Crazy-Horse yeah tough one eh, reckon with our aging and leaving outside backs, there's got to be a punt on some newbies and what better opportunity than a touring french side? Worked wonders just over 20 years ago.
Carter would be an interesting one too, shades of Jane, his "style" might work well at test level.
French series an ideal opportunity to experiment a bit. Not just new ABs, but the likes of Love, Lakai, etc. A give players like QT & Sami T some serious game time.
Don't disagree with you, but there is the obvious problem with NZers not accepting a loss - especially to an under strength side. AB legacy and all that.
Is it actually a fact that France are going to turn up with a B side? Haven’t heard much more on this coming out of France other than what was thrown out there last year by their coach
Edit: Just scrolled down and saw the stuff article - so expect nearly a full strength team to be touring
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@Chris-B i feel like you are arguing a point i didn't make.
Not everyone in a rugby team should be a superstar. You need a balance of flash fluffybunnies and workers.
BUT
Just because you are a "worker" doesn't mean you aren't good at core roles. If you are a loose forward worker who doesn't make dominant tackles or move bodies quickly at ruck time, then what good are you? Two of those guys i mentioned fit this to a tee. Work hard? yes. Do effective work once you get there? not so much.
Likewise a back should be able to either distribute the ball well (hand or foot), or be a strong carrier (maybe defender as well), or be fucking quick. I am not sure the back i mentioned brings any of those skills to a high standard.
Even teh workers need to be more than "solid" or that old fucking cliche "won't let you down". I think this is especially true for those earmarked as bench players.
Also Beaver absolutely sums up what i am saying. Beaver was the best 10 in the country when he got the Chiefs to the GF and made the ABs. Turns out he wasn't actually good enough at the next level though and was rightfully rissolled. He was brought back only in the most dire of emergencies, and played the ultimate "limited skillset" game to squeak the narrowest of wins. And was never seen again. The everyman's fairytale.
@mariner4life I guess my point in a nutshell is that the guy you bring in has to have a good chance of being better.
"Giving someone a go" because they're "Not XYX" isn't a sound plan.
And yet it's pretty easy for us to say that Razor should give someone a go. If that guy loses a tight test match for us, it will be the same people howling for Razor's head. It's part of the reason the coaches are so conservative - and, why, for instance it looks like Billy Proctor was under-utilized last year. They didn't want to risk giving him a go against the big teams.
On my boy Davy, I'm sure he knows he's on thin ice. Despite the seemingly common perception that he's one of Razor's favourites - when it comes to AB selection - he's not.
I'm pretty sure he was the only member of the RWC squad who didn't make Razor's first squad.
He got three goes of the bench last year. Once against Australia, when Jordie was injured and Razor said they'd planned to play Billy, but he wasn't seen as adequate cover for 2nd five. One against Japan, when Jordie and Rieko had flown ahead to Europe. And once vs Italy when again Jordie was injured and Billy had come home for baby birthing.
As I said last year - he's probably the third best second-five and his closest contender was a converted wing who had only played a handful of games in the position (nostrildamus can tell us how many).
If everyone was fit this year, I'm sure they'd pick Tupaea ahead of him. Tupaea will (IMO) get picked anyway, they need his midfield utility value, but Dave might get a reprieve while ALB is unavailable. Or they might pick Higgins (but he'll be lucky to get a run - and I'm not sure they'd want to give him a debut vs France if injury dictated it).
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@mariner4life I guess my point in a nutshell is that the guy you bring in has to have a good chance of being better.
"Giving someone a go" because they're "Not XYX" isn't a sound plan.
And yet it's pretty easy for us to say that Razor should give someone a go. If that guy loses a tight test match for us, it will be the same people howling for Razor's head. It's part of the reason the coaches are so conservative - and, why, for instance it looks like Billy Proctor was under-utilized last year. They didn't want to risk giving him a go against the big teams.
On my boy Davy, I'm sure he knows he's on thin ice. Despite the seemingly common perception that he's one of Razor's favourites - when it comes to AB selection - he's not.
I'm pretty sure he was the only member of the RWC squad who didn't make Razor's first squad.
He got three goes of the bench last year. Once against Australia, when Jordie was injured and Razor said they'd planned to play Billy, but he wasn't seen as adequate cover for 2nd five. One against Japan, when Jordie and Rieko had flown ahead to Europe. And once vs Italy when again Jordie was injured and Billy had come home for baby birthing.
As I said last year - he's probably the third best second-five and his closest contender was a converted wing who had only played a handful of games in the position (nostrildamus can tell us how many).
If everyone was fit this year, I'm sure they'd pick Tupaea ahead of him. Tupaea will (IMO) get picked anyway, they need his midfield utility value, but Dave might get a reprieve while ALB is unavailable. Or they might pick Higgins (but he'll be lucky to get a run - and I'm not sure they'd want to give him a debut vs France if injury dictated it).
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
the guy you bring in has to have a good chance of being better
while i get this, how exactly are you going to know if you don't give it a crack? Look at the fundamentals or what they bring and make a call. Known substandard quantities racking up squad selections because there is no guarantee someone isn't going to do better is cowardice.
I keep thinking about the French back 3, which i rate as the best in the game. Those guys are reckless renegades who would never get AB caps because they make glaring fuck ups while trying shit. Penaud is amazing but by christ he can make a clanger. That would never be tolerated by NZ selectors, and they would be left to rot behind known quantities who don't have their upside, but are seen as a safer pair of hands.
The interesting juxtaposition is the leeway these same players would get in NZ if they already had 80 caps.
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Can i just say, the same names get a constant kicking on here, and i am as guilty of it as anyone, and feel bad about it as they are good footballers. And it seems weird that it's effectively squaddies that we squabble over.
But, in my mind at least, they represent a problem the selectors created for themselves. In my eyes the underperforming units last year were the loosies and the backline. And even if the coaches wanted to make a change, they move the starters magnets to the side of the board, look at who they have to bring in, and think "oh, nah, maybe not aye".
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Can i just say, the same names get a constant kicking on here, and i am as guilty of it as anyone, and feel bad about it as they are good footballers. And it seems weird that it's effectively squaddies that we squabble over.
But, in my mind at least, they represent a problem the selectors created for themselves. In my eyes the underperforming units last year were the loosies and the backline. And even if the coaches wanted to make a change, they move the starters magnets to the side of the board, look at who they have to bring in, and think "oh, nah, maybe not aye".
@mariner4life I don't like slagging people off either. There has never been a Super rugby player who isn't about five dimensions better than I ever was.
And I don't disagree with what you're saying - but, in regard to the loosies, the two guys you mentioned weren't the worst loosie IMO. But Kaino got sent away to work on his game and came back better!
On the French back three - look at the kicking Will Jordan got on here last year and not just by his No. 5.5 million fan.
You coud gather up a fair quantity of regular posters who agreed he's not a fullback.He's looked pretty good there in Super.
He's (I think still) scoring test tries faster than anyone in history. And while he's doing it he can also make a clanger
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I like to think my criticisms of players have made them strive to be better, addressing the clear deficiencies I rant about.
And when they do, I acknowledge that they're better - some even deserving of/ demanding selection.
Quite frankly, some of them should thank me.
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@mariner4life I don't like slagging people off either. There has never been a Super rugby player who isn't about five dimensions better than I ever was.
And I don't disagree with what you're saying - but, in regard to the loosies, the two guys you mentioned weren't the worst loosie IMO. But Kaino got sent away to work on his game and came back better!
On the French back three - look at the kicking Will Jordan got on here last year and not just by his No. 5.5 million fan.
You coud gather up a fair quantity of regular posters who agreed he's not a fullback.He's looked pretty good there in Super.
He's (I think still) scoring test tries faster than anyone in history. And while he's doing it he can also make a clanger
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
He's looked pretty good there in Super.
Looked almost as good as Stevenson or Harkin, pretty good effort.
Unfortunately got made to look like a pretender by an old fuck called in last minute on return from a bad injury in the weekend. A Welsh outcast, no less.
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I like to think my criticisms of players have made them strive to be better, addressing the clear deficiencies I rant about.
And when they do, I acknowledge that they're better - some even deserving of/ demanding selection.
Quite frankly, some of them should thank me.
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@antipodean I just want Will to realise there's 14 other players on the park on his side (15 if he's playing for the saders).
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean I just want Will to realise there's 14 other players on the park on his side (15 if he's playing for the saders).
I've been watching Jordan more and while his ability to put other players into space isn't class leading, a considerable amount of that must be because he's injecting himself in the line and others have to catch up.
What is obvious is how much he communicates, which is very important for a fullback.
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@mariner4life I guess my point in a nutshell is that the guy you bring in has to have a good chance of being better.
"Giving someone a go" because they're "Not XYX" isn't a sound plan.
And yet it's pretty easy for us to say that Razor should give someone a go. If that guy loses a tight test match for us, it will be the same people howling for Razor's head. It's part of the reason the coaches are so conservative - and, why, for instance it looks like Billy Proctor was under-utilized last year. They didn't want to risk giving him a go against the big teams.
On my boy Davy, I'm sure he knows he's on thin ice. Despite the seemingly common perception that he's one of Razor's favourites - when it comes to AB selection - he's not.
I'm pretty sure he was the only member of the RWC squad who didn't make Razor's first squad.
He got three goes of the bench last year. Once against Australia, when Jordie was injured and Razor said they'd planned to play Billy, but he wasn't seen as adequate cover for 2nd five. One against Japan, when Jordie and Rieko had flown ahead to Europe. And once vs Italy when again Jordie was injured and Billy had come home for baby birthing.
As I said last year - he's probably the third best second-five and his closest contender was a converted wing who had only played a handful of games in the position (nostrildamus can tell us how many).
If everyone was fit this year, I'm sure they'd pick Tupaea ahead of him. Tupaea will (IMO) get picked anyway, they need his midfield utility value, but Dave might get a reprieve while ALB is unavailable. Or they might pick Higgins (but he'll be lucky to get a run - and I'm not sure they'd want to give him a debut vs France if injury dictated it).
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life I guess my point in a nutshell is that the guy you bring in has to have a good chance of being better.
As I said last year - he's probably the third best second-five and his closest contender was a converted wing who had only played a handful of games in the position (nostrildamus can tell us how many).
If everyone was fit this year, I'm sure they'd pick Tupaea ahead of him. Tupaea will (IMO) get picked anyway, they need his midfield utility value, but Dave might get a reprieve while ALB is unavailable. Or they might pick Higgins (but he'll be lucky to get a run - and I'm not sure they'd want to give him a debut vs France if injury dictated it).
I'm not a Havili hater, and I think picking on a guy for the underperformance of a team where he barely plays is ridiculous. But he's not better than Lam, Higgins, Tavatavanawai, Tupaea - or Barrett or ALB.
I think all of those players potentially offer a valuable point(s) of difference too. We had a specialist wing on the bench at times last year, and Lam or Jim stop that. Higgins is creative and the best offloader. Jim and Tupaea (to a lesser extent) with breakdown work, and stronger carries from arguably all of them. -
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean I just want Will to realise there's 14 other players on the park on his side (15 if he's playing for the saders).
I've been watching Jordan more and while his ability to put other players into space isn't class leading, a considerable amount of that must be because he's injecting himself in the line and others have to catch up.
What is obvious is how much he communicates, which is very important for a fullback.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
What is obvious is how much he communicates, which is very important for a fullback.
And a centre. Faith restoring to see Rieko leading the team chats in the weekend.
