All Blacks 2025

[Chris B.]

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:

I expect the 2025 squad to be the 2024 squad with maaaaybe some fiddling around the edges, and the test team to be the same as last year as well. That's kinda depressing really.

I think you'll be right on this. I expect most of us will be able to pick 90% of the squad.

But, I think there's a significant jump to test level from Super rugby, so most of the best prospects take time to get acclimatised - so there's a bit of disincentive to change.

But, more importantly, we never have to deal with any man-management issues associated with dropping a player. For example, if you were to drop Ardie - as many were advocating last year - you'd be feeling a bit sick right now if he'd signed a multi-million dollar contract to fuck off to Japan.

[KiwiMurph]

@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:

I think mostly, there's an overarching fear of losing test matches - that's been exacerbated by our extraordinary success of especially 2011-2015. It's a professional game, we've shared our IP with the world, what exactly is our competitive advantage at the highest level? Not any of us posting on the Fern, I suspect.

The issue is - the fear of losing test matches is getting in the way of winning test matches.

Ironically last year was probably the year to try things - first year of a 4 year deal, the two Bok games were away (which we lost anyway) and Razor had 12 months between finishing Crusaders and starting the ABs.

Razor will be building his whole 2025 TRC around keeping Bledisloe and beating Boks at Eden Park - given 2024 I see very few risks being taken in the 23 for those games - which in and of itself could see us get Ws for those games but in the background we still have the same underlying issues that never get addressed (i.e. loose forward balance, midfield, impact from bench loose forward and bench utility etc etc) which could bite us down the track

[canefan]

This year is critical to our fortunes in 2027. If he continues down the same track as last season, in terms of selection and tactics, I will be very downbeat about our chances at the next RWC

[mariner4life]

@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:

I expect the 2025 squad to be the 2024 squad with maaaaybe some fiddling around the edges, and the test team to be the same as last year as well. That's kinda depressing really.

I think you'll be right on this. I expect most of us will be able to pick 90% of the squad.

But, I think there's a significant jump to test level from Super rugby, so most of the best prospects take time to get acclimatised - so there's a bit of disincentive to change.

But, more importantly, we never have to deal with any man-management issues associated with dropping a player. For example, if you were to drop Ardie - as many were advocating last year - you'd be feeling a bit sick right now if he'd signed a multi-million dollar contract to fuck off to Japan.

If guys are getting spots because we're scared they'll leave then we are more fucked than I thought

[SBW1]

Ngani coming into the equation next year could be interesting. When is Joey Manu coming to New Zealand? Have predicted for a while that we might have a few ex Nrl players vying for a spot in the next World Cup.

[Grooter]

@SBW1 you wanna go external. do guys like AJ Lam, Timoci Tavatavanawai & Quinn Tupaea not impress you in the slightest or something lol

[Bones]

@Grooter said in All Blacks 2025:

@SBW1 you wanna go external. do guys like AJ Lam, Timoci Tavatavanawai & Quinn Tupaea not impress you in the slightest or something lol

The level of dusruspikt for guys in NZ is almost intolerable

[brodean]

The red cards have certainly been an issue.

Loss - SBW Lions
Loss - Scott Barrett Australia
Loss - Tu'ungafasi Australia
Win - Jordie Barrett Australia
Loss - Angus Ta'avao Ireland
Win - Brodie Retallick Japan
Loss - Scott Barrett South Africa ( Plus Sam Cane Yellow )
Win - Ethan De Groot Nambia
Loss - Sam Cane South Africa

Apart from the Jordie Barrett one it cost us against the better teams.

Still I feel that loss in Ireland in 2016 was more significant than the Lion's loss. That game marked a real moment of complacency.

[reprobate]

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:

And i am sick of the same core guys getting wheeled out every single week, most for 80 minutes, failing to deliver, and never being under pressure for their spot.

This. And then e.g. our props recently where some serial underperformer who has been there for ages get injured and someone else comes in and is an immediate improvement, and you just go "fucking no shit dummies, why didn't you pick him 10 tests ago".

[brodean]

Selection consistency has been an issue. These are the times this decade where the same loose forward trios have been consecutively selected ( according to Gemini ).

28% of games this decade had a consecutive loose forward selection. Win rate is 82% when we have consecutive loose forward selection and 65% when we don't.

11 October 2020 vs Australia (Wellington):
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane
No. 8: Ardie Savea

18 October 2020 vs Australia (Auckland):[1]
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane
No. 8: Ardie Savea

7 August 2021 vs Australia (Auckland):[4]
BF: Akira Ioane[4]
OF: Dalton Papalii[4]
No. 8: Ardie Savea[4]

14 August 2021 vs Australia (Auckland):[5]
BF: Akira Ioane[5]
OF: Dalton Papalii
No. 8: Ardie Savea[5]

5 September 2021 vs Australia (Perth):
BF: Akira Ioane
OF: Dalton Papalii
No. 8: Ardie Savea

13 August 2022 vs South Africa (Johannesburg):
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane
No. 8: Ardie Savea

27 August 2022 vs Argentina (Christchurch):
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane
No. 8: Ardie Savea

3 September 2022 vs Argentina (Hamilton):[7]
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane[7]
No. 8: Ardie Savea

8 July 2023 vs Argentina (Mendoza):
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane
No. 8: Ardie Savea

15 July 2023 vs South Africa (Auckland):
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane
No. 8: Ardie Savea

14 October 2023 vs Ireland (Saint-Denis) (Rugby World Cup Quarter-final):[10]
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane
No. 8: Ardie Savea

20 October 2023 vs Argentina (Saint-Denis) (Rugby World Cup Semi-final):[10]
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane
No. 8: Ardie Savea

28 October 2023 vs South Africa (Saint-Denis) (Rugby World Cup Final):[10]
BF: Shannon Frizell
OF: Sam Cane
No. 8: Ardie Savea

Saturday, July 6, 2024 vs England (Dunedin):
BF: Samipeni Finau
OF: Dalton Papalii
No. 8: Ardie Savea

Saturday, July 13, 2024 vs England (Auckland):
BF: Samipeni Finau
OF: Dalton Papalii
No. 8: Ardie Savea

Saturday, September 21, 2024 vs Australia (Sydney):
BF: Wallace Sititi[5]
OF: Sam Cane[5]
No. 8: Ardie Savea[5]

Saturday, September 28, 2024 vs Australia (Wellington):[5]
BF: Wallace Sititi[5]
OF: Sam Cane[5]
No. 8: Ardie Savea[5]

[ACT Crusader]

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:

I think the coaches will keep the faith with Vaa’i but I would really like to see Barrett and Holland get a couple of starts together.

bro you're better than this. Vaa'i has been the premier lock at both levels for the past 12-15 months. If anything SB is the one who should be giving way.

They are all in on Barrett being captain so I don’t think they will shift him, and I am a big Vaa’i fan and he will feature in all the big tests - more a case of giving Holland a start perhaps against the Argies or Aussies.

[nostrildamus]

@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:

It's 2025 and people are still claiming Akira Ioane is the saviour for the ABs. A very good Super Rugby player, who never quite kicked on.

Bollocks. He had some great games for the ABs.
https://www.allblacks.com/videos/akira-ioane-goes-beast-mode-vs-australia

[gt12]

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:

I think the coaches will keep the faith with Vaa’i but I would really like to see Barrett and Holland get a couple of starts together.

bro you're better than this. Vaa'i has been the premier lock at both levels for the past 12-15 months. If anything SB is the one who should be giving way.

They are all in on Barrett being captain so I don’t think they will shift him, and I am a big Vaa’i fan and he will feature in all the big tests - more a case of giving Holland a start perhaps against the Argies or Aussies.

I'm not actually in love with this idea, but for discussion sake since I've had a few too many beers on a weeknight.

Vaai has (more than) the size and workrate we are looking for in our 6, he is good in contact, makes dominant tackles and goes well around the field (he is a good passer when the chiefs run through their set plays but can also be the ball carrier).

Williams and others (e.g., Taylor) can do a role attacking the ball in middle of park, while Savea and Sotutu operate towards the edges.

I don't think any of the above will happen btw.

I'm picking Lio Willie to get the 8 shirt and us to have hybrids in the loosies and to struggle with our line out.

[Mr Fish]

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:

I think the coaches will keep the faith with Vaa’i but I would really like to see Barrett and Holland get a couple of starts together.

bro you're better than this. Vaa'i has been the premier lock at both levels for the past 12-15 months. If anything SB is the one who should be giving way.

They are all in on Barrett being captain so I don’t think they will shift him, and I am a big Vaa’i fan and he will feature in all the big tests - more a case of giving Holland a start perhaps against the Argies or Aussies.

I'm not actually in love with this idea, but for discussion sake since I've had a few too many beers on a weeknight.

Vaai has (more than) the size and workrate we are looking for in our 6, he is good in contact, makes dominant tackles and goes well around the field (he is a good passer when the chiefs run through their set plays but can also be the ball carrier).

Williams and others (e.g., Taylor) can do a role attacking the ball in middle of park, while Savea and Sotutu operate towards the edges.

I don't think any of the above will happen btw.

I'm picking Lio Willie to get the 8 shirt and us to have hybrids in the loosies and to struggle with our line out.

Believe that Razor thinks Lio-Willie is too small for Test rugby.

[gt12]

@Mr-Fish

That would actually make me feel better, but I reckon he’ll be picked.

[ACT Crusader]

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:

I mean all of our issues with the balance of the loosies is because the coaches didn't want Akira, despite being a super talented big body with AB experience and in career best form. Their personal beef with Akira is really, really hurting them now.

Share your opinion with certainty and you will always get a few likes

Ioane is one of many super talented blindsides we have tried with mixed output. Some excellent performances and some not so.

I think the problem we have had with finding a more permanent blindside comes back to the main problem of the AB coaches over the last few years - playing Cane and Savea together. It’s never really worked despite some standout individual performances by both players (and team results) over the journey.

I’m not here to denigrate either player either because I’m a fan of both - but because of their relative strengths as players - and areas that aren’t strengths - we have had to in my opinion over invest in trying to find the perfect player to fit in with these 2, an apparent unicorn in my view.

So are we in danger of going down the same path as @mariner4life is hinting at with Savea and Sititi?

The starting trio against France - 6. Finau 7. Savea 8. Sititi - may have been a signal of what they might like but for me that struggled against the size of the French pack. There was a nervous optimism I would say with this trio going in, but again the strengths of Savea and Sititi and not what they naturally offer was bought into spotlight.

[brodean]

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:

I mean all of our issues with the balance of the loosies is because the coaches didn't want Akira, despite being a super talented big body with AB experience and in career best form. Their personal beef with Akira is really, really hurting them now.

Share your opinion with certainty and you will always get a few likes

Ioane is one of many super talented blindsides we have tried with mixed output. Some excellent performances and some not so.

I think the problem we have had with finding a more permanent blindside comes back to the main problem of the AB coaches over the last few years - playing Cane and Savea together. It’s never really worked despite some standout individual performances by both players (and team results) over the journey.

I’m not here to denigrate either player either because I’m a fan of both - but because of their relative strengths as players - and areas that aren’t strengths - we have had to in my opinion over invest in trying to find the perfect player to fit in with these 2, an apparent unicorn in my view.

So are we in danger of going down the same path as @mariner4life is hinting at with Savea and Sititi?

The starting trio against France - 6. Finau 7. Savea 8. Sititi - may have been a signal of what they might like but for me that struggled against the size of the French pack. There was a nervous optimism I would say with this trio going in, but again the strengths of Savea and Sititi and not what they naturally offer was bought into spotlight.

Lakai came on after a few minutes in that French game.

Having said that I agree that the Savea and Cane combo has been unbalanced.

[ACT Crusader]

@brodean another in the same mould and hence why we struggled with the bigger pack.

I think if we want to play one of these guys on the bench we need to go with a 6/2 or have a genuine lock/6 option on the bench also.

And on a completely unrelated matter but is All Blacks related - the new ABs website is terrible. The game and player pages are less informative. All the scrolling just to see the starting lineups because they’ve gone with oversized fonts and icons.

Plus all the historical links to games have not been indexed to the new site page. Gummon ABs

[brodean]

@ACT-Crusader

Yeah the new site is poor and takes an age to load sometimes.

[SBW1]

@Grooter They are all excellent. I have been predicting for a while that we could get a few ex Nrl players in the All Black equation. If Kalyn Ponga does chase his All Blacks dream, that will confirm my hunch. I know it is possibly a long shot.