2025 All Blacks v France series
-
I think this is probably worthy of its own thread, but feel free to merge if not - purely on the squad v France to see how close to 35/35 anyone can get - this is what I am predicting. I'd imagine the squad is now locked in barring injuries - one game shouldn't really change anything.
PROPS:
Tamaiti Williams (Crusaders)
Ethan de Groot (Highlanders)
George Bower (Crusaders)
Tyrel Lomax (Hurricanes)
Fletcher Newell (Crusaders)
Pasilio Tosi (Hurricanes)HOOKERS:
Codie Taylor (Crusaders)
Samisoni Taukei'aho (Chiefs)
George Bell (Crusaders)LOCKS:
Scott Barrett (c) (Crusaders)
Tupou Vaa'i (Chiefs)
Patrick Tuipulotu (Blues)
Fabian Holland (Highlanders)LOOSE FORWARDS:
Ethan Blackadder (Crusaders)
Samipeni Finau (Chiefs)
Ardie Savea (Moana Pasifika)
Peter Lakai (Hurricanes)
Dalton Papalii (Blues)
Wallace Sititi (Chiefs)
Christian Lio-Willie (Crusaders)HALFBACKS:
Cameron Roigard (Hurricanes)
Cortez Ratima (Chiefs)
Noah Hotham (Crusaders)FIRST FIVES:
Damian McKenzie (Chiefs)
Beauden Barrett (Blues)MIDFIELDERS:
Jordie Barrett (Hurricanes)
Quinn Tupaea (Chiefs)
Rieko Ioane (Blues)
Billy Proctor (Hurricanes)
David Havili (Crusaders)OUTSIDE BACKS:
Caleb Clarke (Blues)
Jacob Ratumaitavuki-Kneepkens (Highlanders)
Sevu Reece (Crusaders)
Will Jordan (Crusaders)
Ruben Love (Hurricanes)Unavailable due to injury: Asafo Aumua (Hurricanes), Simon Parker (Chiefs), Anton Lienert-Brown (Chiefs), Caleb Tangitau (Highlanders)
@frugby Good squad. The only changes I'd make would be to:
- replace Bower with Numia or Norris. We're likely going to start with Williams, and if he's injured de Groot. I like Numia for his potential impact off the bench. Ryan has shown that he values players that can get over the gainline. Numia is a big improvement on Bower in that area
- Jacobsen has to be in ahead of Blackadder. They seem very similar to me as potential starting 6s or loose forward bench cover, but Jacobsen is much more durable.
- Tavatavanawi ahead of Havili. I know they won't, but I wish. He could provide a real point of difference coming off the bench in the last 20 mins.
- Narawa in for JRK. JRK's defence seems quite poor(?) and Narawa has been great.
I really hope Aumua is fit and ready to be the third option at hooker. His form at the end of last year was great.
Sevu Reece has looked very good this season. I was also impressed with his work under the high ball against the Blues, which he seems to have improved(??). I think him and Clarke as starting wings will be fine. Hell, maybe even him and Reiko?
-
They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris. He has a higher ceiling imo. Get him in the environment and work on his scrummaging, which tbf has improved a lot already this year. He's probably the best ball carrying prop in NZ.
@akan004 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris.
I am expecting Bower to be chosen as well, but it isn't a selection for the future as he'll be 35 in 2027. Norris will at least get an opportunity for the Māori.
-
@akan004 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris.
I am expecting Bower to be chosen as well, but it isn't a selection for the future as he'll be 35 in 2027. Norris will at least get an opportunity for the Māori.
-
Last year in the media Jason Ryan claimed he had final say over all forward selections. Ryan really likes older players. He claimed blindsides start hitting their peak at 30 when talking about Frizell. So I think we may see Bower.
The South African team that won the last RWC was a bit of an anomaly in terms of age. They got around some of that age issue with innovative use of bench.
Prior to the 2023 RWC these were the key stats for RWC winning teams:
- Starting side has an average of 50 caps per player
- Starting side has an average of 5.5 years of test rugby
- 23 has at least 850 caps total
- At least 30% of the matchday squad in the 27-29 'prime years' range
So I'm not sold on Ryan's idea of age. Especially when we refuse to make proper use of the bench.
As Razor alluded to hopefully they really are open to using the bench better. I think the Crusaders have made good use of their bench this year and its been a key reason why they've improved.
-
Last year in the media Jason Ryan claimed he had final say over all forward selections. Ryan really likes older players. He claimed blindsides start hitting their peak at 30 when talking about Frizell. So I think we may see Bower.
The South African team that won the last RWC was a bit of an anomaly in terms of age. They got around some of that age issue with innovative use of bench.
Prior to the 2023 RWC these were the key stats for RWC winning teams:
- Starting side has an average of 50 caps per player
- Starting side has an average of 5.5 years of test rugby
- 23 has at least 850 caps total
- At least 30% of the matchday squad in the 27-29 'prime years' range
So I'm not sold on Ryan's idea of age. Especially when we refuse to make proper use of the bench.
As Razor alluded to hopefully they really are open to using the bench better. I think the Crusaders have made good use of their bench this year and its been a key reason why they've improved.
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
He claimed blindsides start hitting their peak at 30 when talking about Frizell. So I think we may see Bower.
Weird example considering Bower isn’t a blindside…
But yes, I agree with you in that he will be selected. Razor likes comfort, he will be there.
-
@Bovidae Picking Bower is nothing but a comfort selection which I wish Razor would stay away from. Time to find the next gen that will be in the black jersey for more than the next year or 2. Now is the time to do it.
@Landers92 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Bovidae Picking Bower is nothing but a comfort selection which I wish Razor would stay away from. Time to find the next gen that will be in the black jersey for more than the next year or 2. Now is the time to do it.
He says he wants to be braver. Time to show it
-
A player like Bower might be third choice but with Williams now first choice, they have good cover in DeGroot and should invest in a less experienced player in the squad.
If there is an injury, Bower could come right in to start or go on the bench.
Sadly, the ABs need to operate a bit like a club team as we don't run an AB 15 for the full representative season, and they aren't a capture team, so we should be sending a message to players like Norris to stick around.
-
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
He claimed blindsides start hitting their peak at 30 when talking about Frizell. So I think we may see Bower.
Weird example considering Bower isn’t a blindside…
But yes, I agree with you in that he will be selected. Razor likes comfort, he will be there.
I would say his idea of prime age for prop will be even older than blindside. The point is he likes old players even though there is little to substantiate that idea that players over 30 are better.
Owen Franks, Sam Whitelock, and Brodie Retallick were all AB legends and I'm not convinced they were at their peak at 30+. In terms of AB years their best years were from 2011 to 2015.
-
@akan004 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris.
I am expecting Bower to be chosen as well, but it isn't a selection for the future as he'll be 35 in 2027. Norris will at least get an opportunity for the Māori.
@Bovidae said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@akan004 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris.
I am expecting Bower to be chosen as well, but it isn't a selection for the future as he'll be 35 in 2027. Norris will at least get an opportunity for the Māori.
I'm expecting them to go the other way and pick Norris.
If Ofa was available, they'd pick him. So take the opportunity while he's not there to give a younger guy a run. George is very much a known quantity - won't let you down but unlikely to be a point of difference either. It's a bit tough on guy's like GB, but omelettes and broken eggs...
-
@Bovidae said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@akan004 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris.
I am expecting Bower to be chosen as well, but it isn't a selection for the future as he'll be 35 in 2027. Norris will at least get an opportunity for the Māori.
I'm expecting them to go the other way and pick Norris.
If Ofa was available, they'd pick him. So take the opportunity while he's not there to give a younger guy a run. George is very much a known quantity - won't let you down but unlikely to be a point of difference either. It's a bit tough on guy's like GB, but omelettes and broken eggs...
@Chris-B said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Bovidae said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@akan004 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris.
I am expecting Bower to be chosen as well, but it isn't a selection for the future as he'll be 35 in 2027. Norris will at least get an opportunity for the Māori.
I'm expecting them to go the other way and pick Norris.
If Ofa was available, they'd pick him. So take the opportunity while he's not there to give a younger guy a run. George is very much a known quantity - won't let you down but unlikely to be a point of difference either. It's a bit tough on guy's like GB, but omelettes and broken eggs...
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Be brave Razor. Be brave
-
@Bovidae said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@akan004 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
They will go with Bower but I would prefer Norris.
I am expecting Bower to be chosen as well, but it isn't a selection for the future as he'll be 35 in 2027. Norris will at least get an opportunity for the Māori.
I'm expecting them to go the other way and pick Norris.
If Ofa was available, they'd pick him. So take the opportunity while he's not there to give a younger guy a run. George is very much a known quantity - won't let you down but unlikely to be a point of difference either. It's a bit tough on guy's like GB, but omelettes and broken eggs...
-
I would say his idea of prime age for prop will be even older than blindside. The point is he likes old players even though there is little to substantiate that idea that players over 30 are better.
Owen Franks, Sam Whitelock, and Brodie Retallick were all AB legends and I'm not convinced they were at their peak at 30+. In terms of AB years their best years were from 2011 to 2015.
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I would say his idea of prime age for prop will be even older than blindside. The point is he likes old players even though there is little to substantiate that idea that players over 30 are better.
Owen Franks, Sam Whitelock, and Brodie Retallick were all AB legends and I'm not convinced they were at their peak at 30+. In terms of AB years their best years were from 2011 to 2015.
Franks maybe but not Whitelock. He was at his best from 2014-2019 and still performing at a high level albeit in a different role in 22 and 23.
It’s all about balancing experience and youth and I agree with others that if both Williams and EdG are fit they go with a young buck (I’m in the Numia camp ahead of Norris). But if one of those two frontliners aren’t available you have an experienced prop in the squad (doesn’t have to make the 23 necessarily) like Bower in there. Just as important as the game itself is having the right guys in the training camp to hone their craft against. That’s not being conservative or focussed on “security” but about balance and using assets available to you.
-
Clermont and Castres were knocked out of the Top 14 yesterday. So their players and those from La Rochelle, Pau, Montpellier, Racing Paris, Lyon, Stade Française, Perpignan and Vannes will be available for a 28 man squad to play an England XV next week and then tour NZ.
A further 14 players from the teams that lose the Semi Finals between Toulouse and Bayonne and between Bordeaux Begles and Toulon will be added before the squad reaches NZ.
-
A player like Bower might be third choice but with Williams now first choice, they have good cover in DeGroot and should invest in a less experienced player in the squad.
If there is an injury, Bower could come right in to start or go on the bench.
Sadly, the ABs need to operate a bit like a club team as we don't run an AB 15 for the full representative season, and they aren't a capture team, so we should be sending a message to players like Norris to stick around.
@gt12 said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
A player like Bower might be third choice but with Williams now first choice, they have good cover in DeGroot and should invest in a less experienced player in the squad.
If there is an injury, Bower could come right in to start or go on the bench.
Sadly, the ABs also need to operate a bit like a club team as we don't run an AB 15 for the full representative season, and they aren't a capture team, so we should be sending a message to players like Norris to stick around.
I agree. Bower would be underwhelming. Get Norris in there
-
Can Norris play both sides to a good level?
-
Can Norris play both sides to a good level?
@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Can Norris play both sides to a good level?
Only a LH.
-
Can Norris play both sides to a good level?
@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Can Norris play both sides to a good level?
Why does he need to play both sides well if you have two props on the bench?
-
@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Can Norris play both sides to a good level?
Why does he need to play both sides well if you have two props on the bench?
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Can Norris play both sides to a good level?
Why does he need to play both sides well if you have two props on the bench?
Just curious.
-
The French have named their squad to play an England XV next Saturday and then to be of the squad to tour New Zealand. 14 more players will be added to this squad next week.
