What is decline?
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@Mauss said in What is decline?:
All I remember is a perfectly chiselled jaw, a beautiful mane of black hair touched by shades of grey and the most tidy execution of draw and pass..
Bloody hell, you've just turned rugby into 50 shades of ballplay!
...
They would do well to remember a player like Richard Kahui
Sold! Kahui for ABs backline coach.
I disagree that Spengler's book was a moral foray but the rest of this post was excellent.
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@MiketheSnow said in What is decline?:
@Jet said in What is decline?:
@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
Cobus Reinach was pushing our boys around the place and feeling collars. Both this week and last week.
The fucking scrum half.
Most teams work off 10, some work off 9
Eg SA (when Pollard’s not playing) and France
When you have a team who work off 9 against a team with a 4th choice 9 then you’re already behind the 8 ball
I mean in the scuffle stakes.
He was causing argie bargie the whole time. And we just let him.
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@Jet said in What is decline?:
@MiketheSnow said in What is decline?:
@Jet said in What is decline?:
@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
Cobus Reinach was pushing our boys around the place and feeling collars. Both this week and last week.
The fucking scrum half.
Most teams work off 10, some work off 9
Eg SA (when Pollard’s not playing) and France
When you have a team who work off 9 against a team with a 4th choice 9 then you’re already behind the 8 ball
I mean in the scuffle stakes.
He was causing argie bargie the whole time. And we just let him.
Agreed
My point still stands
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Decline is relative.
The ABs have declined a little bit in the last decade, but they still have the no. 1 ranking (might be different tomorrow, WR do the calculation on a Monday).
What has changed in the last decade is that some of their opposition is a lot lot more F'n difficult to deal with.Gone are the days when they could run onto the field, play a high tempo passing game, back their individual skills, and beat everyone all the time, with an occasional trip up.
The trip ups coinciding with the opposition managing to slow them down.
They trip up all the time now.Not sure exactly what their game plan is at the mo.
They do have one; but we cant see it work because the other teams just wont let them use it!
Pretty sure that there is just too much plan anyway, and probably a bit naive (and maybe arrogant?).
Like the Boks stopped them doing what they wanted to do on the weekend, and then they went Oh . . . We got nuttin!
And sooked it up.Keep it simple; secure your own set piece, go for field position, (DONT DROP THE F'N BALL) then just F'n power it (NO F'n CARDS!).
Only go for the skill game when, for those few moments (like turnovers), the game loses structure.
Waiting for a moment; not trying to make a moment (like you did in the Under 15's).Havin said all that; some of the players on the nice contracts currently, are probably not suited to a 'keep it simple' plan, so . . .
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@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
You know the more I read this post, the more I agree with it and I agreed with it to begin with.
I'm just wrapping my head around the fact that Sevu Reece is an All Black and James Lowe plays for Ireland.
I know who I would rather go into battle with.
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@mohikamo said in What is decline?:
Decline is relative.
The ABs have declined a little bit in the last decade, but they still have the no. 1 ranking (might be different tomorrow, WR do the calculation on a Monday).
What has changed in the last decade is that some of their opposition is a lot lot more F'n difficult to deal with.Gone are the days when they could run onto the field, play a high tempo passing game, back their individual skills, and beat everyone all the time, with an occasional trip up.
The trip ups coinciding with the opposition managing to slow them down.
They trip up all the time now.Not sure exactly what their game plan is at the mo.
They do have one; but we cant see it work because the other teams just wont let them use it!
Pretty sure that there is just too much plan anyway, and probably a bit naive (and maybe arrogant?).
Like the Boks stopped them doing what they wanted to do on the weekend, and then they went Oh . . . We got nuttin!
And sooked it up.Keep it simple; secure your own set piece, go for field position, (DONT DROP THE F'N BALL) then just F'n power it (NO F'n CARDS!).
Only go for the skill game when, for those few moments (like turnovers), the game loses structure.
Waiting for a moment; not trying to make a moment (like you did in the Under 15's).Havin said all that; some of the players on the nice contracts currently, are probably not suited to a 'keep it simple' plan, so . . .
When you talk about a power game (with our poor high ball skills in mind), would something like this work?
9 Roigard
10
11 Clarke
12 Tupea or Tavatavanawai
13 Faingaʻanuku
14 Jordan
15 Jordie -
12 Tavatavanawai
I don't think we've seen enough of him at this level to know, but that isn't his fault.
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@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
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@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
The Chiefs part is much appreciated.
Kahui's best attribute was being prepared to put in the work to become one of the best in the world at defusing bombs, when it really wasn't his skillset. He didn't have the shoulders for midfield, but that job he did in 2011 was magic.
That's what's missing with this current group - the hunger, analysis, breakdown of skills involved, training, practice, and execution to make sure that we can defuse the aerial attack (and other parts of the game).
As fans, I think what is galling about Razors's explanation is that this is not new and we had and have mastered it previously, so what has gone wrong that we don't have that counter as part of our DNA?
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@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
Apologies for replying twice, but what is interesting about this post is what it implies for the coaches - they want guys they can coach in the system they work within, rather than guys with the skillset. Read isn't available.
Sotutu can 100% throw that pass - so why not coach him on all of the other basics (like getting off the ground 15% faster) to turn him into (potentially) the best player in the world.
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
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@gt12 said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
Apologies for replying twice, but what is interesting about this post is what it implies for the coaches - they want guys they can coach in the system they work within, rather than guys with the skillset. Read isn't available.
Sotutu can 100% throw that pass - so why not coach him on all of the other basics (like getting off the ground 15% faster) to turn him into (potentially) the best player in the world.
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
100% agree with this and with Mauss’s original post
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@gt12 said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
Apologies for replying twice, but what is interesting about this post is what it implies for the coaches - they want guys they can coach in the system they work within, rather than guys with the skillset. Read isn't available.
Sotutu can 100% throw that pass - so why not coach him on all of the other basics (like getting off the ground 15% faster) to turn him into (potentially) the best player in the world.
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
Slightly tangential to your point but your mention of Sotutu made me think of it.....
In terms of selection it seems that NZ selectors really have a pretty fixed mindset and make their minds up relatively easily about a player and either write him off or treat him as Gods gift.
It really seems like the available talent pool does not get scouted and mined heavily enough. They have to do a better job with talent ID and giving everyone a fair shot. I even think in terms of a guy like Shaun Stevenson, I don't rate him too heavily and don't think he's like an all time great or anything but did the selectors really give him the full chance to prove his worth? Telea is another one - do I rate him as a great? No, of course not and I knew that once he was announced as going I overseas that was the end. But based on how this test season has played out I think he might have been able to do a job for the ABs.
I think a decent bit of talent in NZ falls through the cracks without being fully utilized whereas some very average players get 50+ caps.
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@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
Apologies for replying twice, but what is interesting about this post is what it implies for the coaches - they want guys they can coach in the system they work within, rather than guys with the skillset. Read isn't available.
Sotutu can 100% throw that pass - so why not coach him on all of the other basics (like getting off the ground 15% faster) to turn him into (potentially) the best player in the world.
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
Slightly tangential to your point but your mention of Sotutu made me think of it.....
In terms of selection it seems that NZ selectors really have a pretty fixed mindset and make their minds up relatively easily about a player and either write him off or treat him as Gods gift.
It really seems like the available talent pool does not get scouted and mined heavily enough. They have to do a better job with talent ID and giving everyone a fair shot. I even think in terms of a guy like Shaun Stevenson, I don't rate him too heavily and don't think he's like an all time great or anything but did the selectors really give him the full chance to prove his worth? Telea is another one - do I rate him as a great? No, of course not and I knew that once he was announced as going I overseas that was the end. But based on how this test season has played out I think he might have been able to do a job for the ABs.
I think a decent bit of talent in NZ falls through the cracks without being fully utilized whereas some mediocre players get 50+ caps.
Really would have liked to see Stevensons boot at 15 for a test or 2.
There are reservations about his defending, but DMAC, Love and Jordan are hardly Sam Cane in the tackle are they?
Surely Stevenson could have been coached up to be as good a defender as the renowned behemoth Hugo Keenan?
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@Jet said in What is decline?:
@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
Apologies for replying twice, but what is interesting about this post is what it implies for the coaches - they want guys they can coach in the system they work within, rather than guys with the skillset. Read isn't available.
Sotutu can 100% throw that pass - so why not coach him on all of the other basics (like getting off the ground 15% faster) to turn him into (potentially) the best player in the world.
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
Slightly tangential to your point but your mention of Sotutu made me think of it.....
In terms of selection it seems that NZ selectors really have a pretty fixed mindset and make their minds up relatively easily about a player and either write him off or treat him as Gods gift.
It really seems like the available talent pool does not get scouted and mined heavily enough. They have to do a better job with talent ID and giving everyone a fair shot. I even think in terms of a guy like Shaun Stevenson, I don't rate him too heavily and don't think he's like an all time great or anything but did the selectors really give him the full chance to prove his worth? Telea is another one - do I rate him as a great? No, of course not and I knew that once he was announced as going I overseas that was the end. But based on how this test season has played out I think he might have been able to do a job for the ABs.
I think a decent bit of talent in NZ falls through the cracks without being fully utilized whereas some mediocre players get 50+ caps.
Really would have liked to see Stevensons boot at 15 for a test or 2.
There are reservations about his defending, but DMAC, Love and Jordan are hardly Sam Cane in the tackle are they?
Surely Stevenson could have been coached up to be as good a defender as the renowned behemoth Hugo Keenan?
Yes, sorry Jet, my phone died earlier before I could get a response in.
That's the thing, a player might not be brilliant and they may have flaws in their game but if you don't get them into the environment a few times and coach them up and give them a few chances how can you be truly satisfied that you saw the best of them?
When you consider the super rugby seasons they had it's just funny how a guy like Stevenson is heading overseas whereas a rank average player like ALB added to an already inflated number of caps.
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@mohikamo said in What is decline?:
Decline is relative.
The ABs have declined a little bit in the last decade, but they still have the no. 1 ranking (might be different tomorrow, WR do the calculation on a Monday).
What has changed in the last decade is that some of their opposition is a lot lot more F'n difficult to deal with.Gone are the days when they could run onto the field, play a high tempo passing game, back their individual skills, and beat everyone all the time, with an occasional trip up.
The trip ups coinciding with the opposition managing to slow them down.
They trip up all the time now.Not sure exactly what their game plan is at the mo.
They do have one; but we cant see it work because the other teams just wont let them use it!
Pretty sure that there is just too much plan anyway, and probably a bit naive (and maybe arrogant?).
Like the Boks stopped them doing what they wanted to do on the weekend, and then they went Oh . . . We got nuttin!
And sooked it up.Keep it simple; secure your own set piece, go for field position, (DONT DROP THE F'N BALL) then just F'n power it (NO F'n CARDS!).
Only go for the skill game when, for those few moments (like turnovers), the game loses structure.
Waiting for a moment; not trying to make a moment (like you did in the Under 15's).Havin said all that; some of the players on the nice contracts currently, are probably not suited to a 'keep it simple' plan, so . . .
Depends on how you are measuring this team. In terms of talent, it's an average AB team but possibly not that much worse than what we have rolled out historically. If you are comparing it to our generational team from 2010-2015 however, we have declined massively. How many of the current squad would make a combined 23? Taylor, Roigard, Ardie and one of the props would make the bench. I don't think one guy from this current team would be in the starting lineup.
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@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
a week ago Sititi threw a sexy inside pop pass for our best try. Do 100% agree Hoskins has great hands, but again, short passing.
Our former, but no longer, point of difference was not forwards who sould throw wide passes (except Zinny of course) it was the micro skills of our tight forwards. Locks who could pop a pass in to a gap. Props able to make that quick transfer pass across their body. Now every team has those players, and there is a very real argument that we do not. My problems with Sititi and Savea are not their handling skills.
And your Kahui fan fic didn't get much attention because it was PG compared to the one i have written and published on literotica.com involving him, SBW and Messam.
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Stephenson was not as good in his final year. But that year he was hot he should have played. You see BB's defense on the weekend? Missed the tackle for the big break out. Bumped off like a toddler for a try. Appalling. Will be completely overlooked.
I 100% agree with the point made that we don't seem to back ourselves to improve skill players in other areas, preferring to bring up hard workers and hope to teach them skill.
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@kpkanz said in What is decline?:
Our main issue is our religious adherence to kicking the ball away.
although, if we had a good aerial game and a better defensive line, this would actually not be an issue.
Our glaring weaknesses of kicking and our aerial game is impacting everything else.
Our chasers arent fully committing to the chase, meaning there is little pressure on the defender taking it, so they can drop back for force back, pass in field to someone else as they prep to chase the kick and put us under pressure to either kick short into touch, throw a silly pass, drop it, or simply return another aimless kick.
Whereas thier kicking has a goal, they are moving our players about, probing, and when the moment right, they opt to run it, or if nothing comes of it, kick it out, but usually with a net-gain.
Long gone are the days you dont want to kick it to our back 3.
