What is decline?
-
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
Apologies for replying twice, but what is interesting about this post is what it implies for the coaches - they want guys they can coach in the system they work within, rather than guys with the skillset. Read isn't available.
Sotutu can 100% throw that pass - so why not coach him on all of the other basics (like getting off the ground 15% faster) to turn him into (potentially) the best player in the world.
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
100% agree with this and with Mauss’s original post
-
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
Apologies for replying twice, but what is interesting about this post is what it implies for the coaches - they want guys they can coach in the system they work within, rather than guys with the skillset. Read isn't available.
Sotutu can 100% throw that pass - so why not coach him on all of the other basics (like getting off the ground 15% faster) to turn him into (potentially) the best player in the world.
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
Slightly tangential to your point but your mention of Sotutu made me think of it.....
In terms of selection it seems that NZ selectors really have a pretty fixed mindset and make their minds up relatively easily about a player and either write him off or treat him as Gods gift.
It really seems like the available talent pool does not get scouted and mined heavily enough. They have to do a better job with talent ID and giving everyone a fair shot. I even think in terms of a guy like Shaun Stevenson, I don't rate him too heavily and don't think he's like an all time great or anything but did the selectors really give him the full chance to prove his worth? Telea is another one - do I rate him as a great? No, of course not and I knew that once he was announced as going I overseas that was the end. But based on how this test season has played out I think he might have been able to do a job for the ABs.
I think a decent bit of talent in NZ falls through the cracks without being fully utilized whereas some very average players get 50+ caps.
-
@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
Apologies for replying twice, but what is interesting about this post is what it implies for the coaches - they want guys they can coach in the system they work within, rather than guys with the skillset. Read isn't available.
Sotutu can 100% throw that pass - so why not coach him on all of the other basics (like getting off the ground 15% faster) to turn him into (potentially) the best player in the world.
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
Slightly tangential to your point but your mention of Sotutu made me think of it.....
In terms of selection it seems that NZ selectors really have a pretty fixed mindset and make their minds up relatively easily about a player and either write him off or treat him as Gods gift.
It really seems like the available talent pool does not get scouted and mined heavily enough. They have to do a better job with talent ID and giving everyone a fair shot. I even think in terms of a guy like Shaun Stevenson, I don't rate him too heavily and don't think he's like an all time great or anything but did the selectors really give him the full chance to prove his worth? Telea is another one - do I rate him as a great? No, of course not and I knew that once he was announced as going I overseas that was the end. But based on how this test season has played out I think he might have been able to do a job for the ABs.
I think a decent bit of talent in NZ falls through the cracks without being fully utilized whereas some mediocre players get 50+ caps.
Really would have liked to see Stevensons boot at 15 for a test or 2.
There are reservations about his defending, but DMAC, Love and Jordan are hardly Sam Cane in the tackle are they?
Surely Stevenson could have been coached up to be as good a defender as the renowned behemoth Hugo Keenan?
-
@Jet said in What is decline?:
@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
Apologies for replying twice, but what is interesting about this post is what it implies for the coaches - they want guys they can coach in the system they work within, rather than guys with the skillset. Read isn't available.
Sotutu can 100% throw that pass - so why not coach him on all of the other basics (like getting off the ground 15% faster) to turn him into (potentially) the best player in the world.
This reminds of the days when guys like Zinzan couldn't get a good run (under a Canterbury coach....), then when a coach came along and found a way to take advantage of their skills, we suddenly could play rugby in the way that others may only dream of.
Slightly tangential to your point but your mention of Sotutu made me think of it.....
In terms of selection it seems that NZ selectors really have a pretty fixed mindset and make their minds up relatively easily about a player and either write him off or treat him as Gods gift.
It really seems like the available talent pool does not get scouted and mined heavily enough. They have to do a better job with talent ID and giving everyone a fair shot. I even think in terms of a guy like Shaun Stevenson, I don't rate him too heavily and don't think he's like an all time great or anything but did the selectors really give him the full chance to prove his worth? Telea is another one - do I rate him as a great? No, of course not and I knew that once he was announced as going I overseas that was the end. But based on how this test season has played out I think he might have been able to do a job for the ABs.
I think a decent bit of talent in NZ falls through the cracks without being fully utilized whereas some mediocre players get 50+ caps.
Really would have liked to see Stevensons boot at 15 for a test or 2.
There are reservations about his defending, but DMAC, Love and Jordan are hardly Sam Cane in the tackle are they?
Surely Stevenson could have been coached up to be as good a defender as the renowned behemoth Hugo Keenan?
Yes, sorry Jet, my phone died earlier before I could get a response in.
That's the thing, a player might not be brilliant and they may have flaws in their game but if you don't get them into the environment a few times and coach them up and give them a few chances how can you be truly satisfied that you saw the best of them?
When you consider the super rugby seasons they had it's just funny how a guy like Stevenson is heading overseas whereas a rank average player like ALB added to an already inflated number of caps.
-
@mohikamo said in What is decline?:
Decline is relative.
The ABs have declined a little bit in the last decade, but they still have the no. 1 ranking (might be different tomorrow, WR do the calculation on a Monday).
What has changed in the last decade is that some of their opposition is a lot lot more F'n difficult to deal with.Gone are the days when they could run onto the field, play a high tempo passing game, back their individual skills, and beat everyone all the time, with an occasional trip up.
The trip ups coinciding with the opposition managing to slow them down.
They trip up all the time now.Not sure exactly what their game plan is at the mo.
They do have one; but we cant see it work because the other teams just wont let them use it!
Pretty sure that there is just too much plan anyway, and probably a bit naive (and maybe arrogant?).
Like the Boks stopped them doing what they wanted to do on the weekend, and then they went Oh . . . We got nuttin!
And sooked it up.Keep it simple; secure your own set piece, go for field position, (DONT DROP THE F'N BALL) then just F'n power it (NO F'n CARDS!).
Only go for the skill game when, for those few moments (like turnovers), the game loses structure.
Waiting for a moment; not trying to make a moment (like you did in the Under 15's).Havin said all that; some of the players on the nice contracts currently, are probably not suited to a 'keep it simple' plan, so . . .
Depends on how you are measuring this team. In terms of talent, it's an average AB team but possibly not that much worse than what we have rolled out historically. If you are comparing it to our generational team from 2010-2015 however, we have declined massively. How many of the current squad would make a combined 23? Taylor, Roigard, Ardie and one of the props would make the bench. I don't think one guy from this current team would be in the starting lineup.
-
@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
a week ago Sititi threw a sexy inside pop pass for our best try. Do 100% agree Hoskins has great hands, but again, short passing.
Our former, but no longer, point of difference was not forwards who sould throw wide passes (except Zinny of course) it was the micro skills of our tight forwards. Locks who could pop a pass in to a gap. Props able to make that quick transfer pass across their body. Now every team has those players, and there is a very real argument that we do not. My problems with Sititi and Savea are not their handling skills.
And your Kahui fan fic didn't get much attention because it was PG compared to the one i have written and published on literotica.com involving him, SBW and Messam.
-
Stephenson was not as good in his final year. But that year he was hot he should have played. You see BB's defense on the weekend? Missed the tackle for the big break out. Bumped off like a toddler for a try. Appalling. Will be completely overlooked.
I 100% agree with the point made that we don't seem to back ourselves to improve skill players in other areas, preferring to bring up hard workers and hope to teach them skill.
-
@kpkanz said in What is decline?:
Our main issue is our religious adherence to kicking the ball away.
although, if we had a good aerial game and a better defensive line, this would actually not be an issue.
Our glaring weaknesses of kicking and our aerial game is impacting everything else.
Our chasers arent fully committing to the chase, meaning there is little pressure on the defender taking it, so they can drop back for force back, pass in field to someone else as they prep to chase the kick and put us under pressure to either kick short into touch, throw a silly pass, drop it, or simply return another aimless kick.
Whereas thier kicking has a goal, they are moving our players about, probing, and when the moment right, they opt to run it, or if nothing comes of it, kick it out, but usually with a net-gain.
Long gone are the days you dont want to kick it to our back 3.
-
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
And your Kahui fan fic didn't get much attention because it was PG compared to the one i have written and published on literotica.com involving him, SBW and Messam.
And yourself, don't forget.
-
@NTA said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
And your Kahui fan fic didn't get much attention because it was PG compared to the one i have written and published on literotica.com involving him, SBW and Messam.
And yourself, don't forget.
just watching from the shadows
-
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
Do 100% agree Hoskins has great hands, but again, short passing.
He has great long passes. It something he does that no other loose forward in NZ does
-
ok fuck, Hoskins Sotutu is our lord and saviour. happy blues fans?
I don't give a shit about his hands, i like him because he actually hits on to the ball, which brings his passing game in to play. I am sick to death of NZ forwards who receive the ball standing still, and then try and stutter step through contact, or think leg drive is the be all and end all.
-
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
I am sick to death of NZ forwards who receive the ball standing still, and then try and stutter step through contact, or think leg drive is the be all and end all.
Our backs will often take the ball while standing still too, such a contrast to the Bokke in that 2nd half where they were playing with such pace, we had no answer apart from giving it back to them to watch and marvel.
-
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
ok fuck, Hoskins Sotutu is our lord and saviour. happy blues fans?
Calm down. You described his passing game incorrectly.. he has a wide passing game that other loosies don't
Not a particularly controversial point
-
@taniwharugby said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
I am sick to death of NZ forwards who receive the ball standing still, and then try and stutter step through contact, or think leg drive is the be all and end all.
Our backs will often take the ball while standing still too, such a contrast to the Bokke in that 2nd half where they were playing with such pace, we had no answer apart from giving it back to them to watch and marvel.
yeah i see that too. Is it do do with a slow pass 9, a shovelling 10, and the resulting timing issues? i dunno, i have never coached a backline
-
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
ok fuck, Hoskins Sotutu is our lord and saviour. happy blues fans?
I don't give a shit about his hands, i like him because he actually hits on to the ball, which brings his passing game in to play. I am sick to death of NZ forwards who receive the ball standing still, and then try and stutter step through contact, or think leg drive is the be all and end all.
Well you said something provably wrong, expect to get called on it.
Sotutu has a great passing game because of his time in the backline. He's also a big body, does the dirty work, hits rucks and scores trys.
Also has the kicking game Savea thinks he has.
If he played for any other franchise he'd be in the squad.
-
two things
I have been calling for him to be our starting #8 for 2 years
As i have said, his passing game is not why, i couldn't give a shit if he has Andrew Johns' wide pass, i want loose forwards who make physical differences. The rest is icing.
Also if he ever kicked the ball in a test i would want him exiled from the country let alone dropped. -
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
two things
I have been calling for him to be our starting #8 for 2 years
As i have said, his passing game is not why, i couldn't give a shit if he has Andrew Johns' wide pass, i want loose forwards who make physical differences. The rest is icing.
Also if he ever kicked the ball in a test i would want him exiled from the country let alone dropped.Yeah fuck forwards that kick;
-
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
Also if he ever kicked the ball in a test i would want him exiled from the country let alone dropped.
best I can do is a chip kick less than 10 m from the tryline as captain.
Take it or leave it.
