All Blacks - New Coach Selection
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@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@ploughboy
Let's not forget everyone was behind Robertson at the start bro. He lost our support because of his selections and his tactics, and the total lack of improvement (or 'trajectory' as per Kirk).you have made some good points earlier but there was always a feeling with some people that Robertson was the emperor with no clothes , and when things started to unravel it was a easy stick to hit him with.These 3 coaches have a far greater experience so hopefully who ever wins gets a greater support
@ploughboy said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@ploughboy
Let's not forget everyone was behind Robertson at the start bro. He lost our support because of his selections and his tactics, and the total lack of improvement (or 'trajectory' as per Kirk).you have made some good points earlier but there was always a feeling with some people that Robertson was the emperor with no clothes , and when things started to unravel it was a easy stick to hit him with.These 3 coaches have a far greater experience so hopefully who ever wins gets a greater support
Yeah there's never going to be 100% confidence. There's at least one fella on here who doesn't rate Joseph, and some who credit Rennie's success at the Chiefs to Smith.
We do all want success though, and I do think most on here have a decent understanding of the game and can deal with some bumps in the road if we see progress. Both Foster and Robertson were so conservative that when we lost we felt like we were achieving nothing - e.g. when we're trotting out BB and getting thrashed by a South African 23 year old. -
Devlin saying next week. Paul Cully inadvertently suggesting this could be Jamie Joseph's last game as Highlanders coach.
From what I do know, Jamie Joseph has been radio silent behind closed doors, which I would suggest means it is decided one way or another, and he wants to get this week out of the way. I have no intel that this is done, but I find it hard to see a world where it is not Joseph.
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well you'd hope they have learnt from both Foster & Razors time and the extensions, KPIs (possible lack of clear ones) and targets.
I am not sure offering anyone a 4 year contract now serves coach or ABs well, although if there are some very strict measures for review after the RWC with option to continue or part ways, maybe, but you'd think a 2 year contract with right of extension should be on offer.
Fozzie was 2 years initially, then extended, while Razor was 4 years, and well....
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
well you'd hope they have learnt from both Foster & Razors time and the extensions, KPIs (possible lack of clear ones) and targets.
I am not sure offering anyone a 4 year contract now serves coach or ABs well, although if there are some very strict measures for review after the RWC with option to continue or part ways, maybe, but you'd think a 2 year contract with right of extension should be on offer.
Fozzie was 2 years initially, then extended, while Razor was 4 years, and well....
KPIs are fine in principle, but there are so many variables that there needs to be flexibility/initiative in decisions to apply them. The retention of Henry is a good example where there is no way he achieved his KPIs (if they had them), but retaining him proved a good decision.
And while long cycles without performance clauses are no good at all, short cycles encourage the sort of conservative 'must win therefore must pick experience' shit selections we've been seeing too much of - and that means young players leaving and a lack of development for the future. -
Devlin saying next week. Paul Cully inadvertently suggesting this could be Jamie Joseph's last game as Highlanders coach.
From what I do know, Jamie Joseph has been radio silent behind closed doors, which I would suggest means it is decided one way or another, and he wants to get this week out of the way. I have no intel that this is done, but I find it hard to see a world where it is not Joseph.
@frugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Devlin saying next week. Paul Cully inadvertently suggesting this could be Jamie Joseph's last game as Highlanders coach.
From what I do know, Jamie Joseph has been radio silent behind closed doors, which I would suggest means it is decided one way or another, and he wants to get this week out of the way. I have no intel that this is done, but I find it hard to see a world where it is not Joseph.
It was Joseph from the time they thought about sacking Robertson just had to be seen to go through a process.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
Yeah look I don't think any single game ought to be a KPI. Things can easily be out of a coaches control in a one-off knockout game, and it would be idiotic to sack a coach if e.g. the 1995 WC final happened.
But winning it should still be the target - we are doing a lot of basic stuff badly, and even so we are still not that far off the pace.@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
Yeah look I don't think any single game ought to be a KPI. Things can easily be out of a coaches control in a one-off knockout game, and it would be idiotic to sack a coach if e.g. the 1995 WC final happened.
But winning it should still be the target - we are doing a lot of basic stuff badly, and even so we are still not that far off the pace.obviously a the WRC is the traget, always is.....just dont like the idea its a win or lose KPI
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well you'd hope they have learnt from both Foster & Razors time and the extensions, KPIs (possible lack of clear ones) and targets.
I am not sure offering anyone a 4 year contract now serves coach or ABs well, although if there are some very strict measures for review after the RWC with option to continue or part ways, maybe, but you'd think a 2 year contract with right of extension should be on offer.
Fozzie was 2 years initially, then extended, while Razor was 4 years, and well....
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
well you'd hope they have learnt from both Foster & Razors time and the extensions, KPIs (possible lack of clear ones) and targets.
I am not sure offering anyone a 4 year contract now serves coach or ABs well, although if there are some very strict measures for review after the RWC with option to continue or part ways, maybe, but you'd think a 2 year contract with right of extension should be on offer.
Fozzie was 2 years initially, then extended, while Razor was 4 years, and well....
I actually like the use of "trajectory" - though it will almost certainly be used as the bloody big stick to beat the coach with. I'm actually OK with occasional shit games and losses (but only to the Boks) if I can see an overall plan unfolding.
In the last 4-5 years we've seen Foster with his back constantly against the wall and unable to seemingly move forward and Robertson who didn't seem to know which direction was actually forward. A 2+2 contract seems the best way forward provided no one is expecting miracles this year. A decent SA tour would be strong progress for me.
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@frugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Devlin saying next week. Paul Cully inadvertently suggesting this could be Jamie Joseph's last game as Highlanders coach.
From what I do know, Jamie Joseph has been radio silent behind closed doors, which I would suggest means it is decided one way or another, and he wants to get this week out of the way. I have no intel that this is done, but I find it hard to see a world where it is not Joseph.
It was Joseph from the time they thought about sacking Robertson just had to be seen to go through a process.
@Chris said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@frugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Devlin saying next week. Paul Cully inadvertently suggesting this could be Jamie Joseph's last game as Highlanders coach.
From what I do know, Jamie Joseph has been radio silent behind closed doors, which I would suggest means it is decided one way or another, and he wants to get this week out of the way. I have no intel that this is done, but I find it hard to see a world where it is not Joseph.
It was Joseph from the time they thought about sacking Robertson just had to be seen to go through a process.
That was always my understanding.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
well you'd hope they have learnt from both Foster & Razors time and the extensions, KPIs (possible lack of clear ones) and targets.
I am not sure offering anyone a 4 year contract now serves coach or ABs well, although if there are some very strict measures for review after the RWC with option to continue or part ways, maybe, but you'd think a 2 year contract with right of extension should be on offer.
Fozzie was 2 years initially, then extended, while Razor was 4 years, and well....
KPIs are fine in principle, but there are so many variables that there needs to be flexibility/initiative in decisions to apply them. The retention of Henry is a good example where there is no way he achieved his KPIs (if they had them), but retaining him proved a good decision.
And while long cycles without performance clauses are no good at all, short cycles encourage the sort of conservative 'must win therefore must pick experience' shit selections we've been seeing too much of - and that means young players leaving and a lack of development for the future.@reprobate rock and hard place for any coach stepping in now, (equally for NZR in the appointment and contract) but as @victor-meldrew says, trajectory is very important right now.
the last few years we seemed to have stagnated with little direction, aside from probably down.
So having a clear plan in place (4 players in each position is both unrealistic and pointless) with short term goals as well, but I do think just clear and simple plans and goals will reap some good rewards early on for any coach stepping in.
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I would think the process was genuine otherwise I suspect Rennie would not have applied.
See what next week brings.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
I would think the process was genuine otherwise I suspect Rennie would not have applied.
See what next week brings.
Also you’re repeating mistakes if it wasn’t
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@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
Yeah look I don't think any single game ought to be a KPI. Things can easily be out of a coaches control in a one-off knockout game, and it would be idiotic to sack a coach if e.g. the 1995 WC final happened.
But winning it should still be the target - we are doing a lot of basic stuff badly, and even so we are still not that far off the pace.obviously a the WRC is the traget, always is.....just dont like the idea its a win or lose KPI
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
Yeah look I don't think any single game ought to be a KPI. Things can easily be out of a coaches control in a one-off knockout game, and it would be idiotic to sack a coach if e.g. the 1995 WC final happened.
But winning it should still be the target - we are doing a lot of basic stuff badly, and even so we are still not that far off the pace.obviously a the WRC is the traget, always is.....just dont like the idea its a win or lose KPI
Whatever the KPIs are, they need to be more nuanced than that. If the team plays exceptionally well or improves consistently over the next two years, only to be knocked out in the World Cup quarterfinal by an opposition playing the game of their lives - with the referee dishing out a handful of questionable cards - it would be tough to justify firing the coach on that basis alone.
Performance and improvement might be difficult to measure or capture in statistics, though. It’s not as easy as showing a nice, neat chart to definitively say a team has improved if they still produce the occasional poor performance or maintain a lower-than-usual win percentage.
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ok so this year with a new coach was does success look like for everyone, and on the other side what does another failure look like and are we in too much shit if it is a failure.
@Chris for me its still the same as when Razor come in...stability, improved trajectory re results, make some tough decisions around some of the incombents, some clear planning for the future....get to the point where are bench is either the next generation getting blooded or older hats who have somethign to provide as impact form the bench (savea) and NOT just journeymen with "experience"....mostly at being average
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@Chris for me its still the same as when Razor come in...stability, improved trajectory re results, make some tough decisions around some of the incombents, some clear planning for the future....get to the point where are bench is either the next generation getting blooded or older hats who have somethign to provide as impact form the bench (savea) and NOT just journeymen with "experience"....mostly at being average
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Chris for me its still the same as when Razor come in...stability, improved trajectory re results, make some tough decisions around some of the incombents, some clear planning for the future....get to the point where are bench is either the next generation getting blooded or older hats who have somethign to provide as impact form the bench (savea) and NOT just journeymen with "experience"....mostly at being average
Yep that pretty much sums up what I would like to see.
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ok so this year with a new coach was does success look like for everyone, and on the other side what does another failure look like and are we in too much shit if it is a failure.
@Chris
Moving on from BB at 10.
Improving the tactical kicking (and chasing) game - both when to kick and accuracy of execution.
Improving contested kick (and kick-off) reception - particularly our support players.
Balance in the loose trio.
Less conservative selection in the 23.
Giving young players an opportunity to play in the top team, not in a dead rubber with wholesale changes.
Composure under pressure (not looking for miracle plays).
A bit more thought in use of the bench.
More direct play from the forwards.
Less props as first receiver / distributor. -
@Chris
Moving on from BB at 10.
Improving the tactical kicking (and chasing) game - both when to kick and accuracy of execution.
Improving contested kick (and kick-off) reception - particularly our support players.
Balance in the loose trio.
Less conservative selection in the 23.
Giving young players an opportunity to play in the top team, not in a dead rubber with wholesale changes.
Composure under pressure (not looking for miracle plays).
A bit more thought in use of the bench.
More direct play from the forwards.
Less props as first receiver / distributor.@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Moving on from BB at 10.
Would have been great to have had more AB XV games (e.g. against the other RC teams) to help develop new 10s etc.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Moving on from BB at 10.
Would have been great to have had more AB XV games (e.g. against the other RC teams) to help develop new 10s etc.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
Yeah look I don't think any single game ought to be a KPI. Things can easily be out of a coaches control in a one-off knockout game, and it would be idiotic to sack a coach if e.g. the 1995 WC final happened.
But winning it should still be the target - we are doing a lot of basic stuff badly, and even so we are still not that far off the pace.obviously a the WRC is the traget, always is.....just dont like the idea its a win or lose KPI
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
Yeah look I don't think any single game ought to be a KPI. Things can easily be out of a coaches control in a one-off knockout game, and it would be idiotic to sack a coach if e.g. the 1995 WC final happened.
But winning it should still be the target - we are doing a lot of basic stuff badly, and even so we are still not that far off the pace.obviously a the WRC is the traget, always is.....just dont like the idea its a win or lose KPI
I prefer KPIs related to rebuilding morale and unity, focus on a better game plan. Do those things and results will come
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ok so this year with a new coach was does success look like for everyone, and on the other side what does another failure look like and are we in too much shit if it is a failure.
@Chris said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
ok so this year with a new coach was does success look like for everyone, and on the other side what does another failure look like and are we in too much shit if it is a failure.
I think it depends a little bit on what the coaching team looks like.
As I understand it, it is a possibility you see Rennie underneath Joseph, in which case I’d have fairly high hopes of what they can achieve.
In that scenario success would like winning the Springbok Tour, and winning all our home tests - I think that is a high bar, but one that the coaches would want to hold themselves to.
I think there is a fair chance the ABs could be coughing and spluttering by the end of the year given the calendar over the first half of the year.
Failure is probably not measured by results, but more by not being an improvement on Robertson and his group - a very low bar.
