The Silver Fern

@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@antipodean said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@antipodean said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

There has been a discipline and or cards issue for some time.

I'd say there's a clear subconscious bias. IMO a capable TMO wouldn't have said the threshold was made for a bloke that has someone turn into him, and not for someone that runs 10 metres into the face of someone else.

I also take umbrage at the discretionary use of "absorbing".

you meant to answer my post?
A I think there is a discipline/card or at least playing to the ref problem with this side for awhile but on the other hand
B I'm not very happy with the TMO or the amount of consistency in the cards/penalties of the RWC final (i.e. I think I agree with you)

Yeah, although I agree we've not been squeaky clean and hence gambling with the vagaries of the adjudicators, but I seriously feel we've not been getting the rub of the green since the Lions Test.

I feel the same way.

This is my reality. My lived experience. Who is anyone to tell me I am wrong?

Welcome to the feeling Bok supporters have had for many years

I think that in the past, the AB's have tended to be able to take the ref decisions out of the game because they were just a notch or two so much better and a call against the AB's here or there didn't really matter.
For their opposition, a few 50:50 calls against them seemed like the kiss of death.

Now that there is, at least for now, less of a gap, the AB fans are feeling those 50:50 calls much more acutely. They do feel like they make the difference on the day.

That is my theory anyway....

It's bloody hard to take the ref out of the game if you are a losing player in the first 2 minutes of the game and then spending half of the game one man down.

The ABs and Saffa team are very rarely teams that will win when the other has a one man advantage for 40 minutes. Much like the woman's RWC final, Ireland v England's 6N game and a number of games involving Wales winning, an opposition player receiving a red card completely alters the competitiveness of one side.

I'm not sure if there are any current studies on the effectiveness of the current rules but the pre-2019 studies seemed to suggest that rugby's approach was significantly less effective than rugby leagues approach on a HIA/concussions per 1000 minutes of game but that may need more data - we seem to have a set of rules that ruin games and don't provide any significant improvement in player safety Concussion rates in elite rugby hit highest levels since records begant

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

One that went our way was Telea's pass to BB for the try. Felt it was slightly forward.

As was Jordie's just before it

Hands never went backwards

Schrödinger's referee - looks great as long as you don't open the box and discover the ref wasn't so great after all?

So Barnes and the TMO had a great game other than the two forward passes they missed live and on review in spite of the obvious search for infringements by the TMO in almost every other aspect of the game as witnessed by the line out knock on/lineout infringement spotted a few minutes prior?

@BerniesCorner said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

This WC had tremendous fan support.
The biggest shiteness to this world cup was the draw. No argument can counter that.

If we ignore results and just go for entertaining, competitive games then I don't buy the argument that the draw was shite.

It was shite for a couple of teams but it resulted in genuinely enjoyable rugby throughout the tournament rather than insipid pool games, a handful of blowout quarters and then a week of decent rugby for the semis and finals. Instead we got maybe a dozen very competitive pool games, 4 brilliant quarter finals, 1 competitive semi and a blow out and two very competitive games for the finals weekend.

I'm in two minds over the length of the tournament - I think it worked well for both players and casual fans to have weekend games. I accept that those following start to finish ended up having a lot of time to fill between games but I'm not sure that is World Rugby's problem.

We talk about wanting Rugby to expand but don't like it when it delivers a tournament that genuinely involves more countries.

@BerniesCorner said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@PecoTrain There's no way a human as a ref in that environment can get all the calls right. A lot of people forget that fact.

@BerniesCorner I accept that and I also accept that to win you have to try and score enough points to take the ref out of the equation.

Doing that is easy to say but very difficult to do when you have had players sent off. Scoring points when the ref and his assistants sit back and let the TMO make the calls for ~50% of the game isn't missing a few calls.

Barnes and the TMO shit the bed with the Frizell YC after 3 minutes - pulling an obscure rule out of the rulebook seemingly because a South African player got injured. The reverse camera angle appeared to show Frizell getting out of the way of Kitshoffs forearm and there was forearm on head contact from Kitshoff albeit it slight and probably only worthy of a penalty given Frizells avoidence.

@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

Does someone have stats? I read a report Shannon made 1 tackle in 55 minutes, surely that is in error. If Akira played like that this Forum would have imploded. And I say this as someone who thought SF played himself back into the team this year.

While I question the accuracy of tackles/missed tackles, the use a consistent method: https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=596201&league=164205

Frizell had 1 tackle and 1 missed tackle.

Taylor/Scottie/Ardie were the only players in double figures and Jordan/Cane made 8 each. The team made 93 out of 106 tackles of which 47 (50% of successful tackles) were made by the 5 players just mentioned.

@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@Nepia said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

The only thing I'd really call Barnes out on was that he would call play it earlier for Smith than for Faf.

None of that was on Barnes. Barnes was fine, it was the random TMO coming in that was the difference. Barnes shouldn't be copping it

In the first half, Barnes let a lot go in terms of high shots and some of the challenges for high balls where Kolbe in particular was very late/didn't time his jump and just hit the Mo'unga. For the second half, Barnes just commentated for the TMO although in his defence, at least he was more accurate and more interesting than the ITV crowd..

For the disallowed try, he had called it on the field as a knock back onto Ardies leg and said play on. For the subsequent penalty and following two penalties, Barnes and the assistants seemed to just be guessing and hoping the TMO would help them out.

When Kwagga Smith came on, a number of balls started flying out of rucks on the Bok side after he had told Smith to get his hands off the ball and the jackler supporting their weight became optional. I think the only penalty after the 56th minute was Kolbe's sending off for either side.

Barnes retreated from the game and let others handle it. Similarly, the assistant refs didn't provide a lot of assistance which is probably why the TMO became so key to many decisions. And that indicates to me that either Barnes team weren't up to the task of a final or that the TMO has taken too much control away from the referee making it difficult to manage a game. Or both.

@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@mariner4life said in [RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks]

Frizzell was carded for falling over

That's the one we were really dudded on, I think.

"A rugby collision", O'Keefe said - and that's basically what this was. They said as much when they didn't upgrade it. And handed the Boks the early momentum.

I didn’t know the law / focus area of not allowing people to fall on exposed knees etc - ITV had the Irish ref on call who immediately called it as an issue, Barnes then reffed it exactly as he said he should. He was actually concerned it would be red. The fact we didn’t know about it doesn’t mean it wasn’t reffed correctly

Which law?

If he'd done it intentionally, it would have been red. Accidentally falling on someone is an accident.

20d, and intentionally is not mentioned in that law

Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.

A player may lever the jackler out of the contest at the ruck but must not drop their weight onto them or target the lower limbs.

"Target" is the operative word.

very good point SF wasn't even looking at the legs.

Which is why it stayed as a YC

Penalised for the neck roll
YC for dropping his weight on the jackaler
YC because it wasn’t deliberate and ‘targeted’

YC for attempting to avoid Kitshoffs forearm that still managed to connect with Frizells head?

@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@Smuts Boks have many eggs in Pollard basket.

Boks starting with plan B with plan A sitting in the stands?

Running rugby versus anti-rugby in a true good versus evil showdown. Or am I just over dramatising this because of how slow the week is going?

@Billy-Webb 4 years under the worst AB coach in professional rugby history up against a battle hardened Bokke that are potentially the greatest rugby side ever with back-to-back RWC's and a series win over the Lions?

There can only be one plucky underdog in that mismatch

@Bones I think it was reffed as a tackle as Dickson said that both players were dropping and the Argentinian player had clearly attempted to go low. The problem was there was clear dead contact so that puts the minimum sanction as a yellow card I believe.

I suspect it is a repeat of the 2019 knockout games where there is any slight mitigation, they avoid carding players but I suspect that I will be proved wrong before the end of the weekend.

@Victor-Meldrew have some respect for the dead please.

@Bones said in RWC QF: Wales v Argentina:

That poor kid. He's going to get his arse kicked from china to LA by Biggar.

Between Biggar limping and retiring after this game, maybe he'll be fine...

@sparky said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@Bones Bomb threats.

So Fozzie does have a plan after all?

If the game is cancelled, is the result decided on a coin toss?

@kiwiinmelb said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@Crazy-Horse said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@kiwiinmelb said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@Crazy-Horse said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@kiwiinmelb said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@nzzp said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@canefan said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@Crazy-Horse said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

I can't wait for this game to be over and we can flush the dunny and move on. But if we manage to win I will have mixed feelings. The following week(s) will be like a slow painful death after being given a glimmer of hope from the doctor. Just plain cruel.

Hope is the killer

Dropping a semi to Arg or Wal would be apex Foster and reflect where the team's at.

I'm living in optimism that BB has been looking after himself for the last 4 years to peak right now - kind of like Carter did back in '15. If he starts running hard and straight, he's a different player.

Annnnd it's the hope that kills ya

I’m living in optimism that first 20 minutes at mt smart is the type of rugby they have been keeping in their back pocket for now .

But yeah , I know , I’m probably dreaming .

Where the Boks played like crap and dropped everything that came their way?

Scoreboard pressure does that to teams

They were shit from the start.

One team was good , one wasn’t

A bit like Wembley

My guess is that all those English grounds look the same to you and you meant Twickenham?

@Crazy-Horse said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

Have spoken to a few Irish guys and they are absolutely packing bricks about this game. Reminds me so much of the RWC monkey we had on our backs. No doubt the players will also be feeling that. Well except for their New Zealanders.

I was thinking about how the Irish fans must be feeling. I am not surprised some are packing bricks. This is their time, but in the back of their minds they are playing the ABs. As pessimistic as I am about the ABs, I would be as nervous as fuck if I was Irish.

What are they worried about? Scott Barrett holding Sextons head against the ground when they are 15 points down and telling him that the only way he would make a RWC semifinal is as a ref?

@BerniesCorner said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

Target; 2000 posts of shite and craic by kickoff.

Don your tinfoil hats, its wild conspiracy time - NZ Rugby has long accepted Fozzie won't bring home the RWC this year so had entered a deal with France to ensure friendly refereeing decisions from NZ refs throughout the tournament in exchange for supporting a future RWC bid and a few test series.

The best Fozzie could hope for was taking a dive in the final so is going out all guns blazing in the quarters.

The Saffas will go out in quarters to dubious penalties and cards and a French try from a forward pass the ref missed.

The only hope for redemption are a plucky Fijian team that weren't included in the fix and England refuse to share their portion of the kickbacks with Fiji in-spite of going out in the quarters...

@Donsteppa said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

At least the end of two decades of suffering from Foster's inconsistent coaching marches ever closer....

It will all pay off when the ARU announces Eddie Jones replacement...

@Bones said in RWC QF: All Blacks v Ireland:

@pakman not creating an account. Does he actually say that?

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.the42.ie%2Fmark-telea-all-blacks-6194941-Oct2023%2F%3Futm_source%3Dshortlink

ALL BLACKS BOSS Ian Foster said he still loves wing Mark Telea after dropping him for the World Cup quarter-final against Ireland due to a disciplinary breach.
26-year-old Telea, who has been brilliant since his Test debut last year, has been left out of the massive clash in Paris on Saturday, with Leicester Fainga’anuku picked in the number 11 jersey in his place.
“He breached the protocol, nothing major, but enough to keep him out of selection for this week,” said Foster this evening at the All Blacks’ team hotel east of Paris.
“I still love him, he trained well, it happens.
“Look, it is what it is. For us it’s pretty clean-cut, I don’t really want to talk about it anymore. We’ve dealt with it as a team and moved on.”
Foster was asked about the decision again later in the press conference and stressed that Telea’s breach was “minor.”
Asked if he is concerned that a key player would break team rules ahead of such a massive week, Foster instead said he believes the decision underlines how much store the All Blacks put in their protocols.
“We believe in what we stand for and that speaks volumes for the team that we make that sort of decision in this sort of week.”
Meanwhile, Foster outlined the reasoning behind some of his other selection decisions.
Finlay Christie has been picked ahead of the in-form Cam Roigard as the back-up scrum-half.
“We just felt it was horses for courses for this particular game. We think Finlay has got an edge defensively,” said Foster.