All Blacks 2025
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For all this talk about loose forwards, people seem to be either ignorant or forgetful about our best loose forward trio in modern times. Kaino, McCaw and Read. From 2010–2015 they were just on another level culminating in two RWC wins, an undefeated season, and they bossed almost every Test they played.
How did they achieve this? With balance across the park but not just covering the others' "weakness". The GOAT was a tireless tackler, hit rucks disrupting and slowing down opposition ball he couldn't thieve. Kaino set the tone physically, but also had underrated hands and footwork - he wasn't just a battering ram. And Read possessed a great skillset, awesome in support, and could absolutely smoke blokes in defence when needed.
Between the three of them they stood 5.76 metres tall.
People attempting to argue we should run out loose forward trios with no players taller than the shortest of the above are on the far left of the bell curve.
It's Test rugby and we need to identify players that have the attributes to play effectively at that level, not audition for a SR barbarians game highlight reel.
You're right re size.
There is a bit of a trap there though, in that we don't have clones of those greats, and you end up trying to shoehorn blokes with different talents into roles which don't suit them. It's important to remember that there are different ways to play the game and the game is played with the players you've got, not the players you wish you had.
Which one of those 3 is Ardie? He doesn't make the number of tackles or hit anywhere near the rucks of McCaw.
We have a couple of guys who are Kaino-like in Finau and Parker, but are not near as good at this stage - and also not as good as other contenders who don't play like Kaino - and they won't be playing alongside McCaw and Read.
Who do we have who plays like Read? A first rate lineout forward who can run and handle with the backs and also smash blokes.These guys, while greats, weren't perfect either. McCaw was not a great ball runner and did not have great hands. Read was not a workrate player, he was a high impact player. And they had our best ever locking combo in front of them.
As much as people on here will hate it, I think the option might be stack the tight forwards with power players Samisoni, Tosi, Tuipolotou, and add a workrate loosie in EB/LJ/DP to the Savea/Sititi combo.
The other way would be to go workrate tighties: Newell, Taylor, Holland, with Finau/Parker.
The third way would be to go fuck it, we're going to play to our strengths - stay with us if you can - and pick Savea/Sititi/Sotutu with the workrate tighties to start and the impact ones on the bench. There's no team who could match that trio in skill-set. I'd love to see it, but Razor seems pretty conservative to me though, so it'll probably be some shitty halfway house between the first two.I'm less concerned with who as to what. I believe that we need to determine which players have certain attributes that align with what McCaw, Kaino and Read brought as a trio and seek the players the best replicate that skillset. So that doesn't mean our number 8 has to be a Read, but somewhere in that trio Read's skillset is catered for.
Our tighties should be doing power work anyway, so it's not acceptable to me to suggest 80% of them should concentrate on that as an excuse to roll out a midget backrow as some are calling for. A SSL backrow is going to only look good against the likes of Japan.
And there's little opportunity to have a paradigm shift in running the opposition off their feet. It's not the early 2000's - the top five ranked Test teams are fit, and use the bench competently the vast majority of the time.
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
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@Canes4life Think he's said many times before, wants to play 13, not wing, it's been 5 years, I would trust him more than Proctor and Ennor or others come Test time, completely different level, been there and done it and still world class, and same with Jordie at 12, , that's the way I see it.
@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life Think he's said many times before, wants to play 13, not wing, it's been 5 years, I would trust him more than Proctor and Ennor or others come Test time, completely different level, been there and done it and still world class, and same with Jordie at 12, , that's the way I see it.
So by that logic, we won’t get to see Proctor start at 13 until Ioane leaves next year?
Right now based off form I would trust Proctor over Ioane, without a doubt. Ioane being world class is a stretch. You need to get these guys with less experience in at some point. No better time than now, 2 years away from a World Cup.
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I don't think Ratima is very strong tactically, but has speed and toughness and plays to patterns. Cam is easily number one. Be good to have 2 others available with different strengths in my view. Not sure why Christie is so vilified on here.
I am not fully convinced by Lakai yet. He is high action, but not sure on how he matches up physically compared to other loosie contenders. I think ABs will value that physical impact greatly.
Procter is a must for 13 in my view. And I want to see how Ollie Norris would go.
It all makes for plenty of scrutiny in remaining super matches.@ARHS said in All Blacks 2025:
Not sure why Christie is so vilified on here.
Slow service
Inconsistent passer
Poor option taker
Slow option taker
Struggles with messy ball
Has poor feel for the position
High error rate
Tries to do too muchThere's a few reasons
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life I think Roigard will start too, because I don't think Robertson has a good handle on how to use his bench effectively. Both good players as you say, I just see Roigard as a better option if we are chasing the game late because of his running, or if we are defending a lead because of his kicking.
Ratima's advantage is in speed and accuracy of passing and combination with McKenzie, and I think that is most important early when the opposition defensive line is at their fastest and most organised.Cam Roigard is just an infinitely better player though, who should play 65 minutes. If you don’t think Ratima is the impact man, then pick someone else.
I don't think Ratima is the impact man, that's why I'd pick someone else: Cam.
The saffas have given us a lesson in bench players not necessarily being worse than starters for years now.From what I've seen the Saffas are basically using heavy rotation of their starting line up to keep players fresh. Their players often get rotated at the 35 to 50 mark compared to ours at 60 - 70. The use of our bench was often poor last year. The mindset is completely different.
@brodean Bringing subs on with 10 minutes to go does my head in
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 2025:
Not sure why Christie is so vilified on here.
Slow service
Inconsistent passer
Poor option taker
Slow option taker
Struggles with messy ball
Has poor feel for the position
High error rate
Tries to do too muchThere's a few reasons
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2025:
Not sure why Christie is so vilified on here.
Slow service
Inconsistent passer
Poor option taker
Slow option taker
Struggles with messy ball
Has poor feel for the position
High error rate
Tries to do too muchThere's a few reasons
Ginger
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@sparky That drunkard ChatGPT tells me:
Being signed to a New Zealand National Provincial Championship (NPC) team is a step toward All Blacks eligibility, but it is not sufficient on its own. To be eligible for All Blacks selection, a player must be contracted to New Zealand Rugby (NZR) and be available to play for a New Zealand-based team in domestic competitions such as the NPC or Super Rugby. Actual participation in matches is not strictly required; being available for selection is the key criterion.
Make of it what you will - it's probably drinking shorts by now.
I don't think they'll start either of Leicester or Frizell, but assuming they're eligible, it wouldn't be surprising to see either in the squad.
e.g. Jordie is nailed in IMO.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
I don't think they'll start either of Leicester or Frizell, but assuming they're eligible, it wouldn't be surprising to see either in the squad.
e.g. Jordie is nailed in IMO
Loving the disingenuous mental wrangling to compare a loyal player on a brief sabbatical to those that left years ago.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2025:
Not sure why Christie is so vilified on here.
Slow service
Inconsistent passer
Poor option taker
Slow option taker
Struggles with messy ball
Has poor feel for the position
High error rate
Tries to do too muchThere's a few reasons
Ginger
@Frank said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2025:
Not sure why Christie is so vilified on here.
Slow service
Inconsistent passer
Poor option taker
Slow option taker
Struggles with messy ball
Has poor feel for the position
High error rate
Tries to do too muchThere's a few reasons
Ginger
Born in Scotland too. I'm not comfortable with the All Blacks poaching from a country that poaches like they do. Puts us one step lower than them on the shitheap.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
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As others have pointed out, I think the only thing that type of gameplan achieved was exhausting our tight forwards.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
As others have pointed out, I think the only thing that type of gameplan achieved was exhausting our tight forwards.
We have to temper the headless chook stuff in favour of a little more control
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
Yeah it was a tasty combo but at the end of the day we didn't win two world cups with them.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
Yeah it was a tasty combo but at the end of the day we didn't win two world cups with them.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
Yeah it was a tasty combo but at the end of the day we didn't win two world cups with them.
Yeah both the Wellington boys breaking down at similar times didn’t help either
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
Yeah it was a tasty combo but at the end of the day we didn't win two world cups with them.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
Yeah it was a tasty combo but at the end of the day we didn't win two world cups with them.
2007 hurt, that was to be their crowning glory
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
JC was a cult figure but him and big head over Kaino and Read? You're dreaming.
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@Canes4life Think he's said many times before, wants to play 13, not wing, it's been 5 years, I would trust him more than Proctor and Ennor or others come Test time, completely different level, been there and done it and still world class, and same with Jordie at 12, , that's the way I see it.
@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life Think he's said many times before, wants to play 13, not wing, it's been 5 years, I would trust him more than Proctor and Ennor or others come Test time, completely different level, been there and done it and still world class, and same with Jordie at 12, , that's the way I see it.
I’m not sure what metrics you use to classify Ioane as being a ‘world class’ centre because he isn’t one. If he was then most of NZ wouldn’t be calling for him to be dropped.
Ioane could have been one of our greatest wings if he stayed there but he didn’t and time is ticking for him to perform in the position he chose.
I mean our best winger in the country has barely scored a try this super season, kind of says it all really. We need a centre that knows how to manipulate space and put our wingers away, the AB game will be better for it.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
JC was a cult figure but him and big head over Kaino and Read? You're dreaming.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
JC was a cult figure but him and big head over Kaino and Read? You're dreaming.
I said "my favourite" not who was the best. JC was everyone's favourite player and Rodders wasn't far behind. Part of a damn good trio.
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@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life Think he's said many times before, wants to play 13, not wing, it's been 5 years, I would trust him more than Proctor and Ennor or others come Test time, completely different level, been there and done it and still world class, and same with Jordie at 12, , that's the way I see it.
I’m not sure what metrics you use to classify Ioane as being a ‘world class’ centre because he isn’t one. If he was then most of NZ wouldn’t be calling for him to be dropped.
Ioane could have been one of our greatest wings if he stayed there but he didn’t and time is ticking for him to perform in the position he chose.
I mean our best winger in the country has barely scored a try this super season, kind of says it all really. We need a centre that knows how to manipulate space and put our wingers away, the AB game will be better for it.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life Think he's said many times before, wants to play 13, not wing, it's been 5 years, I would trust him more than Proctor and Ennor or others come Test time, completely different level, been there and done it and still world class, and same with Jordie at 12, , that's the way I see it.
I’m not sure what metrics you use to classify Ioane as being a ‘world class’ centre because he isn’t one. If he was then most of NZ wouldn’t be calling for him to be dropped.
He was one of our best at the WC. 2 poor Super seasons and a mediocre international one certainly make that seem like a long time ago, but it did happen.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
I think its pretty clear that Razor and co have zero interest in trying to replicate the AB's best loose trio ever.
Michael Jones, Alan Whetton and Zinzan Brooke say hi.
I don't really remember them being an established combo for the ABs.
Lots of Whetton, Jones, Shelford.
Then combos of Whetton, Jones, Brewer, Brooke and Earl.
My favourite was always JC, Richie and Rodders.
JC was a cult figure but him and big head over Kaino and Read? You're dreaming.
I said "my favourite" not who was the best. JC was everyone's favourite player and Rodders wasn't far behind. Part of a damn good trio.
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
I said "my favourite" not who was the best. JC was everyone's favourite player and Rodders wasn't far behind. Part of a damn good trio.
That's fair enough.
