All Blacks v Argentina II
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Nothing worse than the people in charge apparently having no idea what the problem is. Perhaps we should be quietly sounding out Schmidt, Joseph and Brown for the post-apocolyptic period after 2027?
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Nothing worse than the people in charge apparently having no idea what the problem is. Perhaps we should be quietly sounding out Schmidt, Joseph and Brown for the post-apocolyptic period after 2027?
Well, you can forget Schmidt while the current NZR Board are in place - too much baggage.
There's much that's heading in the right direction with this team but Robertson really has to get a grip and get some input from a Schmidt-like character - particularly in the backline.
I'd be ringing up Vern Cotter or Dave Rennie and asking them to run their eyes over the set-up and give some constrictive input. If not, change will likely be forced on him.
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As frustrating as it is, the Sky employees aren't going to rubbish the product they're selling. They've probably been told directly not to make any criticisms. The other media, however, you'd expect to be asking more questions but they don't want to get offside with the team.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
As frustrating as it is, the Sky employees aren't going to rubbish the product they're selling. They've probably been told directly not to make any criticisms. The other media, however, you'd expect to be asking more questions but they don't want to get offside with the team.
Bollocks to that.
Watch the NFL. Commentators compete with each other for excellence - if you're shit or have bad takes, you get mauled. They call good players playing poorly. They call great play from unexpected sources, and don't go down the sycophancy road. And then,s urprise surprise, it's worth watching.
The love-in with NZR and Sky and the media is just shithouse. Too little competition.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Something rotten in the selecting, coaching, and preparation.
Farming out selection to each assistant is a pussy head coach move. Man up Razor, this is your team.
This idea of selection by each assistant only works if the team has a clear approach to play that is agreed upon and acted upon from top to bottom. This team does not have that.
Change is needed - if it isn' players, sack some coaches. If Hansen is the main man in the backs, turn them all over to him and hold him responsible; equally the same goes for Holland. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say, and it tastes like shit.
You've got guys playing significantly worse in the Black jersey than they were a month ago in Super (or European) rugby. That's on coaching and preparation and I doubt that these guys can figure out why because they dumped the previous admin on mass, so there is little institutional knowledge to provide guidance on where things are going wrong.
Assuming that a coach won't get sacked, then the coaches have to show that they have the balls to dump senior players right now. If they believe they have the right game plan and can prepare players appropriately, dump these guys for poor performances and reward those who come in and play accurately.
2 or 3 years ago, the argument was NZ had all the cattle it needed and a change in coach would solve all the problems. Well, guess what - it didn't.
The reason the forwards are doing OK is the coaching team took a long term view and built a unit with some depth. They actually developed players, though 6/7/8 combo has more work to do, but you can see the progress
Apart from sticking with Proctor, there's been nothing like that level of backline development in the same period. If anything we've gone backwards. Serious headless, shovel-it-down-the-line stuff with a god-awful kicking game.
Robertson needs someone with fresh eyes to come in and advise or take charge
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
2 or 3 years ago, the argument was NZ had all the cattle it needed and a change in coach would solve all the problems. Well, guess what - it didn't.
Hold on a second.
After the home series loss to Ireland in 2022 the ABs made huge changes their coaching staff.
In 2024 the ABs came within a whisker of winning the world cup and completed blunted Ireland along the way.
I would say the calls to change the coaching staff were correct.
Look at how far the Wallabies have come in 2 years under Schmidt.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordie Barrett is v good under the highbal
Really?
I'm never confident with JB going up for the highball.
I just accept he's knocking it forward.
I hold the complete opposite opinion, I think he's one of the worlds best under the high ball and he's shown that time and again at 15. I have memories of him charging around the field like a mad man trying to take every single high ball as our wings (one was Bridge) couldn't catch a fucking cold.
A back three of Clarke-Jordie-Jordan would be much better suited to the modern test footy.
Video evidence would be appreciated
@booboo said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordie Barrett is v good under the highbal
Really?
I'm never confident with JB going up for the highball.
I just accept he's knocking it forward.
I hold the complete opposite opinion, I think he's one of the worlds best under the high ball and he's shown that time and again at 15. I have memories of him charging around the field like a mad man trying to take every single high ball as our wings (one was Bridge) couldn't catch a fucking cold.
A back three of Clarke-Jordie-Jordan would be much better suited to the modern test footy.
Video evidence would be appreciated
I think it was this game - nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/rugby-championship-jordie-barrett-reveals-the-area-the-all-blacks-need-to-work-on-in-springboks-rematch/MC6S53XKPYWM2FTPDLAFLBADDM/
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
As frustrating as it is, the Sky employees aren't going to rubbish the product they're selling. They've probably been told directly not to make any criticisms. The other media, however, you'd expect to be asking more questions but they don't want to get offside with the team.
Bollocks to that.
Watch the NFL. Commentators compete with each other for excellence - if you're shit or have bad takes, you get mauled. They call good players playing poorly. They call great play from unexpected sources, and don't go down the sycophancy road. And then,s urprise surprise, it's worth watching.
The love-in with NZR and Sky and the media is just shithouse. Too little competition.
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
As frustrating as it is, the Sky employees aren't going to rubbish the product they're selling. They've probably been told directly not to make any criticisms. The other media, however, you'd expect to be asking more questions but they don't want to get offside with the team.
Bollocks to that.
Watch the NFL. Commentators compete with each other for excellence - if you're shit or have bad takes, you get mauled. They call good players playing poorly. They call great play from unexpected sources, and don't go down the sycophancy road. And then,s urprise surprise, it's worth watching.
The love-in with NZR and Sky and the media is just shithouse. Too little competition.
You're absolutely right. But it is because of that competition. I don't like it at all but in NZ, Sky commentators are part of the rugby “family” and are incentivised to protect the product. In the US, NFL commentators are part of a massive sports-media machine where outspoken criticism is both safe and profitable. You need the competition for that to change.
The irony with the difference in approach to criticism is, in NZ, fans get frustrated at this sugar-coating because they can see what's happening - poor play etc - themselves. Meanwhile, in the US, the more brutally honest the commentary, the more fans feel they’re being respected as knowledgeable viewers and don't stop watching because of it.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Shots fired.
Another good part of this article
Jordan might sit alongside Australia’s Tom Wright as the world’s best attacking fullback, but he’s barely caught a high ball in the last two tests. Both Rieko Ioane and Reece – in different ways – were shown up by their counterparts as being totally lacking in a skillset that is now non-negotiable for international wings. And so too is there a pressing need to instil a better attacking shape and fast-track the players’ understanding of what they are expected to do when they have possession. -
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan might not be a godsend at fullback. Who woulda thought?
Siege gun boot with pace to burn - is it not Zarn Sullivan’s time?
I’d like to see Love at 10.
@stodders said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan might not be a godsend at fullback. Who woulda thought?
Siege gun boot with pace to burn - is it not Zarn Sullivan’s time?
I’d like to see Love at 10.
Zarn is slow as fuck
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@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Goldie on the breakdown "are you guys surprised Beaudy got subbed so early"?
Im surprised he is still a fucking professional rugby player Jeff.
Jesus H Christ.
My favourite Goldie question was "in that performance, did you see anything to be concerned about?"
WTF!
Our backs made 72 metres and one line break, we gave away three Yellow Cards, we kicked aimlessly and were pitiful in the air and in defence. Supposedly experienced leaders were rabbits in the headlights against the 7th ranked side in the world. Our game plan was shit.
Those are some big things to be concerned about.
@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Our backs made 72 metres and one line break
Where did you get these stats from? The Opta ones say the only line break the All Blacks made came from Parker.. Who isn't a back.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan might not be a godsend at fullback. Who woulda thought?
Siege gun boot with pace to burn - is it not Zarn Sullivan’s time?
I’d like to see Love at 10.
Zarn is slow as fuck
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan might not be a godsend at fullback. Who woulda thought?
Siege gun boot with pace to burn - is it not Zarn Sullivan’s time?
I’d like to see Love at 10.
Zarn is slow as fuck
He has not kicked on. Looked like he was going to be an absolute star, but injuries have cripple dhis development and he's not where he needs ot be to play at the top level.
It's a pity as the attributes were there. And his boot .../drool
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@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Our backs made 72 metres and one line break
Where did you get these stats from? The Opta ones say the only line break the All Blacks made came from Parker.. Who isn't a back.
@antipodean Two Cents Rugby was my initial sauce.
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@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan might not be a godsend at fullback. Who woulda thought?
Siege gun boot with pace to burn - is it not Zarn Sullivan’s time?
I’d like to see Love at 10.
Zarn is slow as fuck
He has not kicked on. Looked like he was going to be an absolute star, but injuries have cripple dhis development and he's not where he needs ot be to play at the top level.
It's a pity as the attributes were there. And his boot .../drool
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan might not be a godsend at fullback. Who woulda thought?
Siege gun boot with pace to burn - is it not Zarn Sullivan’s time?
I’d like to see Love at 10.
Zarn is slow as fuck
He has not kicked on. Looked like he was going to be an absolute star, but injuries have cripple dhis development and he's not where he needs ot be to play at the top level.
It's a pity as the attributes were there. And his boot .../drool
That is a real shame. Guess those 2024 injuries did him in. He could catch a ball though, so maybe he could be an AB wing. Don’t have to be fast these days
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
2 or 3 years ago, the argument was NZ had all the cattle it needed and a change in coach would solve all the problems. Well, guess what - it didn't.
Hold on a second.
After the home series loss to Ireland in 2022 the ABs made huge changes their coaching staff.
In 2024 the ABs came within a whisker of winning the world cup and completed blunted Ireland along the way.
I would say the calls to change the coaching staff were correct.
Look at how far the Wallabies have come in 2 years under Schmidt.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
2 or 3 years ago, the argument was NZ had all the cattle it needed and a change in coach would solve all the problems. Well, guess what - it didn't.
Hold on a second.
After the home series loss to Ireland in 2022 the ABs made huge changes their coaching staff.
In 2024 the ABs came within a whisker of winning the world cup and completed blunted Ireland along the way.
I would say the calls to change the coaching staff were correct.
Look at how far the Wallabies have come in 2 years under Schmidt.
This is exactly right. We’re in ‘Emperors’ New Clothes’ territory with Robertson and his coaching team. The TV talking head panels like Aotearoa Rugby Pod and the Breakdown are just an extension of the NZ Rugby marketing machine.
Fans aren’t stupid. They know when they are being served up the same crap excuses every time. It was largely public pressure and calls by a handful of actual journalists (as opposed to cheerleaders) which led to Foster’s assistants getting sacked before the World Cup and Schmidt and Ryan being brought in.
Who would have predicted after the Ireland series that the ABs would end up within two points of winning the WC and doing that with 14 men and some appalling refereeing decisions?
One hopes there are some difficult conversations going on at NZ rugby HQ and that expectations are being laid down. The time for excuses and vague hand waving (‘we don’t really understand what happened out there’) is over.
It doesn’t take an Einstein to observe (except that he did) that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
2 or 3 years ago, the argument was NZ had all the cattle it needed and a change in coach would solve all the problems. Well, guess what - it didn't.
Hold on a second.
After the home series loss to Ireland in 2022 the ABs made huge changes their coaching staff.
In 2024 the ABs came within a whisker of winning the world cup and completed blunted Ireland along the way.
I would say the calls to change the coaching staff were correct.
Look at how far the Wallabies have come in 2 years under Schmidt.
This is exactly right. We’re in ‘Emperors’ New Clothes’ territory with Robertson and his coaching team. The TV talking head panels like Aotearoa Rugby Pod and the Breakdown are just an extension of the NZ Rugby marketing machine.
Fans aren’t stupid. They know when they are being served up the same crap excuses every time. It was largely public pressure and calls by a handful of actual journalists (as opposed to cheerleaders) which led to Foster’s assistants getting sacked before the World Cup and Schmidt and Ryan being brought in.
Who would have predicted after the Ireland series that the ABs would end up within two points of winning the WC and doing that with 14 men and some appalling refereeing decisions?
One hopes there are some difficult conversations going on at NZ rugby HQ and that expectations are being laid down. The time for excuses and vague hand waving (‘we don’t really understand what happened out there’) is over.
It doesn’t take an Einstein to observe (except that he did) that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result.
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
2 or 3 years ago, the argument was NZ had all the cattle it needed and a change in coach would solve all the problems. Well, guess what - it didn't.
Hold on a second.
After the home series loss to Ireland in 2022 the ABs made huge changes their coaching staff.
In 2024 the ABs came within a whisker of winning the world cup and completed blunted Ireland along the way.
I would say the calls to change the coaching staff were correct.
Look at how far the Wallabies have come in 2 years under Schmidt.
This is exactly right. We’re in ‘Emperors’ New Clothes’ territory with Robertson and his coaching team. The TV talking head panels like Aotearoa Rugby Pod and the Breakdown are just an extension of the NZ Rugby marketing machine.
Fans aren’t stupid. They know when they are being served up the same crap excuses every time. It was largely public pressure and calls by a handful of actual journalists (as opposed to cheerleaders) which led to Foster’s assistants getting sacked before the World Cup and Schmidt and Ryan being brought in.
Who would have predicted after the Ireland series that the ABs would end up within two points of winning the WC and doing that with 14 men and some appalling refereeing decisions?
One hopes there are some difficult conversations going on at NZ rugby HQ and that expectations are being laid down. The time for excuses and vague hand waving (‘we don’t really understand what happened out there’) is over.
It doesn’t take an Einstein to observe (except that he did) that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result.
If he doesnt make drastic changes to his coaching group or playing staff or both soon, there will be a groundswell for him to be sacked THIS year.
Dont piss on my neck and tell me its raining Razor.
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Quite possibly an ice-cold take.
Wayne Smith is probably the greatest attacking mind in rugby, is clearly a fantastic person, and is beloved for all he has done for NZ rugby. I love him.
He also hates the box kick. As do I. I'd ban it if I could.
He's been on record telling his teams to avoid contestables of that nature.
He's the coach of the AB coaches.
It seems to me that NZ rugby has been trying to find a way to play 'in our style' without recognizing the reality of where Rugby is right now, ala 2009.
Are the coaches (and those coaching them) strategizing about how to play rugby in a way that just isn't possible under current law interpretations?
Is Smith the right person to help bring the coaches back to reality when they seem to be losing their way?
In 2009, the coaches were prepared to select in a way to at least negate the kick-chase game of other teams. Can he he bring that reality check to these guys and help them see that their desire to play in a certain way isn't looking achievable?
I'm fascinated to see whether NZR, the coaches, and those who coach the coaches respond to this loss.
The manner of it is of huge concern; we seem like a club team that had a bad week and the ABs just can not be that type of team.
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@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan might not be a godsend at fullback. Who woulda thought?
Siege gun boot with pace to burn - is it not Zarn Sullivan’s time?
I’d like to see Love at 10.
Zarn is slow as fuck
He has not kicked on. Looked like he was going to be an absolute star, but injuries have cripple dhis development and he's not where he needs ot be to play at the top level.
It's a pity as the attributes were there. And his boot .../drool
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan might not be a godsend at fullback. Who woulda thought?
Siege gun boot with pace to burn - is it not Zarn Sullivan’s time?
I’d like to see Love at 10.
Zarn is slow as fuck
He has not kicked on. Looked like he was going to be an absolute star, but injuries have cripple dhis development and he's not where he needs ot be to play at the top level.
It's a pity as the attributes were there. And his boot .../drool
A combo of Bailyn and Zarn is that player that @stodders mentioned. :face_with_tears_of_joy:
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Quite possibly an ice-cold take.
Wayne Smith is probably the greatest attacking mind in rugby, is clearly a fantastic person, and is beloved for all he has done for NZ rugby. I love him.
He also hates the box kick. As do I. I'd ban it if I could.
He's been on record telling his teams to avoid contestables of that nature.
He's the coach of the AB coaches.
It seems to me that NZ rugby has been trying to find a way to play 'in our style' without recognizing the reality of where Rugby is right now, ala 2009.
Are the coaches (and those coaching them) strategizing about how to play rugby in a way that just isn't possible under current law interpretations?
Is Smith the right person to help bring the coaches back to reality when they seem to be losing their way?
In 2009, the coaches were prepared to select in a way to at least negate the kick-chase game of other teams. Can he he bring that reality check to these guys and help them see that their desire to play in a certain way isn't looking achievable?
I'm fascinated to see whether NZR, the coaches, and those who coach the coaches respond to this loss.
The manner of it is of huge concern; we seem like a club team that had a bad week and the ABs just can not be that type of team.
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
It seems to me that NZ rugby has been trying to find a way to play 'in our style' without recognizing the reality of where Rugby is right now, ala 2009.
Are the coaches (and those coaching them) strategizing about how to play rugby in a way that just isn't possible under current law interpretations?
I agree. The All Blacks have lost their way trying to play to their imagined brand ideal, not according to reality. The irony is in trying to conjure up the mythical Kiwi quick-passing fast-on-the feet backyard rugby idea of the imagination, they are straying more and more away from their instincts. The game the coaches are trying to get them to play is in their heads, not in their bodies.
No-one is saying you can’t play that style of helter skelter game when it’s warranted. But they also need to be pragmatic and realise there are other ways of playing. And in all that, they can’t the abandon basic skills of the sport.
What’s missing is a level of pragmatism and coolness under pressure that used to define the great All Blacks teams. It’s why they panic so quickly and resort to brain explosions that lead to yellow cards, leading to more pressure and more panic. They are stuck in an almighty existential rugby rut. And I can’t see that Robertson - who clearly has become a prisoner of the romantic AB myth himself - is capable of pulling them out of it.
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Wayne was a architect of the BFs RWC win, and their run it from everywhere style. I seem to recall his AB team was very attack focused as well. The 2011 and 2015 ABs teams he was an integral part of, and the championship winning Chiefs teams had more balance. Maybe this was provided by Henry, Hansen, and Rennie respectively. Razor is a student of the professor, who does not appear to have learned the lessons of old, that you need to win the battle up front before you give it to the backs, and you need to be solid in the basics of the game such as the kicking game. I am not sure he has anyone to make counterpoints in his current team of trusted yes men
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Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
