All Blacks 2025
-
@pakman said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb Let's see how many play 20 tests or more.
Stop moving the goal posts and admit Robertson’s inherited a shit show and is doing incredibly well to build depth in the limited time he’s had
@jimmyb I really don’t think he’s revolutionised anything. What has changed, which predates him, is that Jase Ryan has rebuilt AB set piece and has brought through the talent which was lurking at lower levels.
Although AB XV is useful, it seems it’s only once promising Super players play top ten test oppo we see if they are test match animals. Most aren’t, and some such as Kaino, take time to get there so need to give plenty a try, which Razor has. -
@jimmyb I really don’t think he’s revolutionised anything. What has changed, which predates him, is that Jase Ryan has rebuilt AB set piece and has brought through the talent which was lurking at lower levels.
Although AB XV is useful, it seems it’s only once promising Super players play top ten test oppo we see if they are test match animals. Most aren’t, and some such as Kaino, take time to get there so need to give plenty a try, which Razor has. -
Well if you look at the current make up of the 23 (assuming no injuries):
- De Groot (Foster RWC 23 starter)
- Taylor (Hansen RWC 23 Starter)
- Newell (Foster)
- Scott Barrett (Hansen RWC 23 starter)
- Va’ai (Foster)
- Parker ( Robertson)
- Savea (Hansen RWC 23 starter)
- Sititi (Robertson)
- Roigard ( Foster Debut 23)
- Barrett (Hansen RWC 23 starter)
- Ioane ( Hansen RWC 23 starter)
- J Barrett (Hansen RWC 23 Starter)
- Proctor (Robertson)
- Narawa (Foster - debut 23 one cap)
- Jordan (Foster)
- Taukei’aho (Foster)
- Williams (Foster RWC 23 bench)
- Lomax (Foster RWC 23 starter)
- Holland (Robertson)
- Kirifi/Lakai (Robertson)
- Ratima (Robertson)
- Tupaea (Foster)
- Dmac (Hansen RWC 23 bench)
Hansen Debutants: 7
Foster: 10
Robertson: 6Out of Fosters 11: Roigard, Va’ai, Newell, Tupea, Narawa had limited opportunities.
So in the current 23, who exactly has Foster had the most time with? And any forwards in particular that are setting the world on fire that weren’t brought in by Jason Ryan? What exactly did Foster develop in his four years?
Obviously apart from the two stooges at 10, a defunct centre pairing, a backrow with no depth at 6 or 8. Beauden at fullback, Christie as your 2nd halfback?
And out of the barely capped Foster debutants, should any of them not be there and Robertson should have selected another player?
-
Well if you look at the current make up of the 23 (assuming no injuries):
- De Groot (Foster RWC 23 starter)
- Taylor (Hansen RWC 23 Starter)
- Newell (Foster)
- Scott Barrett (Hansen RWC 23 starter)
- Va’ai (Foster)
- Parker ( Robertson)
- Savea (Hansen RWC 23 starter)
- Sititi (Robertson)
- Roigard ( Foster Debut 23)
- Barrett (Hansen RWC 23 starter)
- Ioane ( Hansen RWC 23 starter)
- J Barrett (Hansen RWC 23 Starter)
- Proctor (Robertson)
- Narawa (Foster - debut 23 one cap)
- Jordan (Foster)
- Taukei’aho (Foster)
- Williams (Foster RWC 23 bench)
- Lomax (Foster RWC 23 starter)
- Holland (Robertson)
- Kirifi/Lakai (Robertson)
- Ratima (Robertson)
- Tupaea (Foster)
- Dmac (Hansen RWC 23 bench)
Hansen Debutants: 7
Foster: 10
Robertson: 6Out of Fosters 11: Roigard, Va’ai, Newell, Tupea, Narawa had limited opportunities.
So in the current 23, who exactly has Foster had the most time with? And any forwards in particular that are setting the world on fire that weren’t brought in by Jason Ryan? What exactly did Foster develop in his four years?
Obviously apart from the two stooges at 10, a defunct centre pairing, a backrow with no depth at 6 or 8. Beauden at fullback, Christie as your 2nd halfback?
And out of the barely capped Foster debutants, should any of them not be there and Robertson should have selected another player?
-
@ShaquilleOatmeal But, we have capped quite a few - there's nearly a whole team of new caps - except at wing, where Narawa had only played a couple of tests under Fozzie.
Tosi, Norris
Bell, McAllister
Darry, Holland
Sititi, Lakai, Lio-Willie, Kirifi, Parker
Ratima, Hotham
Plummer
Tavatavanawai
Proctor
LoveThere's perhaps a half dozen players in our squad whose age is a potential issue for the next RWC - Taylor, SBarret, Tuipolotou, BBarrett, Ioane, Reece:
- and we've got four capped hookers behind Taylor;
- Vaai, Holland, Darry and Lord as young locks
- Mo'unga and DMac at first five
- would be good to build some wing depth, but we have Clarke, Big Leicester and Narawa - with Carter in the frame and I'm pretty sure Tangitau will be soon, now he's fit again.
I think we're jumping at shadows talking about lack of development.
-
@Chris-B Agree, although it beggars belief how few caps Ruben Love has received for a potentially world class player.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B Agree, although it beggars belief how few caps Ruben Love has received for a potentially world class player.
Just like it took an injury to open the door for Sititi, Love might need to push BB down the stairs so DMac moves to 10, WJ moves to 14, and he gets to start at 15
-
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone suggesting Love at 10 (and I a fan of his) is perhaps just a little loopy.
Call me loopy but I'd be happy to see Love given a run at 10. Not throwing him the keys long term but a start wouldn't be a bad thing.
If we win the next two tests would be more than happy for him to have a crack in Perth.
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone suggesting Love at 10 (and I a fan of his) is perhaps just a little loopy.
Call me loopy but I'd be happy to see Love given a run at 10. Not throwing him the keys long term but a start wouldn't be a bad thing.
If we win the next two tests would be more than happy for him to have a crack in Perth.
could perhaps live with him coming off bench at 10 in Perth ,if we in position of safety, boo. But why start a fullback at 10 because he looked ok, in 3 super games. I maybe conservative, but for Love's own peace of mind I even against it. Tostart him and he struggles, could stuff his confidence badly, and then we would have posters etc calling for his head. Give hin 20 minutes if we in ok position is perhaps ok, but I got a feeling he is in squad as a 15 anyway, -
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
Anyone suggesting Love at 10 (and I a fan of his) is perhaps just a little loopy.
Call me loopy but I'd be happy to see Love given a run at 10. Not throwing him the keys long term but a start wouldn't be a bad thing.
If we win the next two tests would be more than happy for him to have a crack in Perth.
could perhaps live with him coming off bench at 10 in Perth ,if we in position of safety, boo. But why start a fullback at 10 because he looked ok, in 3 super games. I maybe conservative, but for Love's own peace of mind I even against it. Tostart him and he struggles, could stuff his confidence badly, and then we would have posters etc calling for his head. Give hin 20 minutes if we in ok position is perhaps ok, but I got a feeling he is in squad as a 15 anyway, -
Look at all the changes the Boks have made. I wouldn't advocate so many changes. But come on it's time for BB to have a rest. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Or play Love on the wing A-la Ben Smith. He looks ready and it's on his home track, what is razor waiting for, he's got to stop pissing about
-
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Having a six play six, a seven play seven, and an eight play eight for the first time since 2015?
Ooo and a midfield that hasn’t got ALB or Reiko in it.
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Having a six play six, a seven play seven, and an eight play eight for the first time since 2015?
Ooo and a midfield that hasn’t got ALB or Reiko in it.
More depth than Hansen?
Have you actually looked at Hansen's first 2 years of results and Hansens first 15 debutants vs Razor's?
-
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Having a six play six, a seven play seven, and an eight play eight for the first time since 2015?
Ooo and a midfield that hasn’t got ALB or Reiko in it.
More depth than Hansen?
Have you actually looked at Hansen's first 2 years of results and Hansens first 15 debutants vs Razor's?
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter They need to change their approach. The All Blacks still act as if inexperienced players should only get game time against minnows or when injuries force their hand. We always hear about the need to rest players and avoid overloading them. So why not rotate in one or two promising players each game, giving them a chance against quality opposition alongside the established core? If they handle it, reward them with another shot straight away. If not, let them bide their time until the next opening.
Isn't that largely what's been happening?
Test 1: Holland, Lio-Willie, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi
Test 2: Vaa'i at 6. Narawa, Tavatavanawai. Another go for Holland, CLW, Proctor, Norris, Kirifi.
Test 3: Kirifi starting. Love, McAllister, Hotham. Another go for Holland, CLW, Tavatavanawai.
Test 4: Vaaí at 6. Holland, Kirifi and Proctor all starting. Norris on the bench.
Test 5: Parker starting. Vaai, Holland, Proctor, Lord.
Test 6. Parker, Proctor, Narawa, Holland, Kirifi, Preston.You and your "facts".
Shhh don’t let anything get in the way of the fact Razor has built more depth in the squad than Hansen and Foster ever did. Isn’t it nice to have six world class props, excellent depth at lock.
Having a six play six, a seven play seven, and an eight play eight for the first time since 2015?
Ooo and a midfield that hasn’t got ALB or Reiko in it.
More depth than Hansen?
Have you actually looked at Hansen's first 2 years of results and Hansens first 15 debutants vs Razor's?
Yeah that's a pretty funny take. Last year's break out player for example wouldn't have even got a game if EB hadn't been hurt. Having said that our tight 5 stocks are building nicely, just have to inject some youth and pace into the backs
-
I think there's a bit more to developing players and building depth than counting the number of players that got to play a test or two and I'm not sure why we're saying doing anything better than Foster means Robertson is doing a good job.
Robertson is doing well trying to develop, for example, Proctor - he's getting a lot of game time against quality opposition and not just because other players are injured. Not at the standard we'd like yet but we'll have to wait and see there. We can't, however, say he's built depth to five players at hooker because George Bell and Brodie McAlister have played a game or three.
-
I think there's a bit more to developing players and building depth than counting the number of players that got to play a test or two and I'm not sure why we're saying doing anything better than Foster means Robertson is doing a good job.
Robertson is doing well trying to develop, for example, Proctor - he's getting a lot of game time against quality opposition and not just because other players are injured. Not at the standard we'd like yet but we'll have to wait and see there. We can't, however, say he's built depth to five players at hooker because George Bell and Brodie McAlister have played a game or three.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
I think there's a bit more to developing players and building depth than counting the number of players that got to play a test or two and I'm not sure why we're saying doing anything better than Foster means Robertson is doing a good job.
Robertson is doing well trying to develop, for example, Proctor - he's getting a lot of game time against quality opposition and not just because other players are injured. Not at the standard we'd like yet but we'll have to wait and see there. We can't, however, say he's built depth to five players at hooker because George Bell and Brodie McAlister have played a game or three.
As you say, lots of those guys either for nothing but garbage time, or a little time against weak opposition
-
When George Bell got picked last year there were a lot of people vociferously stating that the ABs are not a development team.
Now it seems there's a vociferous majority think they are a development team - at least for the best part of four years - and they presumably only stop being a development team when we get to RWC knockout matches?
Like Pakman, I'm happy to field our best team for the next couple of games. Try and put a bit more disarray into Rassie and Joe's plans.
-
My intuition is that Proctor will not be the guy and will end up with a similar test career to David Havili if he's lucky.
I say that thinking that Proctor was going to be the guy so my intuition could be wrong.
In the past players with his level of provincial experience didn't get endless tests to prove themselves. Even Havili looked a lot better initially for the ABs than Proctor has.
Not sure why Proctor gets so many chances when Love gets hardly any while Love has looked better at test level.
-
When George Bell got picked last year there were a lot of people vociferously stating that the ABs are not a development team.
Now it seems there's a vociferous majority think they are a development team - at least for the best part of four years - and they presumably only stop being a development team when we get to RWC knockout matches?
Like Pakman, I'm happy to field our best team for the next couple of games. Try and put a bit more disarray into Rassie and Joe's plans.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
When George Bell got picked last year there were a lot of people vociferously stating that the ABs are not a development team.
Now it seems there's a vociferous majority think they are a development team - at least for the best part of four years - and they presumably only stop being a development team when we get to RWC knockout matches?
Like Pakman, I'm happy to field our best team for the next couple of games. Try and put a bit more disarray into Rassie and Joe's plans.
Let's not confuse development with giving people who have earned a chance an opportunity. Fihaki was a development pick at best for example. Ruben Love is an example of a guy who has done the business at super level for multiple seasons. He has the potential to be what we need. These are two different things
-
When George Bell got picked last year there were a lot of people vociferously stating that the ABs are not a development team.
Now it seems there's a vociferous majority think they are a development team - at least for the best part of four years - and they presumably only stop being a development team when we get to RWC knockout matches?
Like Pakman, I'm happy to field our best team for the next couple of games. Try and put a bit more disarray into Rassie and Joe's plans.
@Chris-B To repeat myself, the reason some think they can’t select, for example, Ruben Love for the next two important games is that, over the past two years, he’s only had one game against Japan and one against France, not playing in the top side. If he’d been given more game time, he might well be a genuine option now.
