All Blacks 2025
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
I don't think any of that is devils advocacy. You're paid up team Razor and co.
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@Chris-B on international experience, the point being that coaching a club team in a competition is a completely different kettle of fish to coaching a national side, particularly the ABs. International coaches struggling with sub-par club sides doesn't invalidate that.
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@Mauss Ha - pointed that at you, because I thought I'd get a well considered response and I'm not disappointed!
But, the thing I really question is the assumption that not having coached internationally is a massive disadvantage.
Now if you've coached a top-6 international team, then you'd expect that you'd learn plenty at the margins in test matches.
But, if you've coached Japan or Italy or Fiji - I reckon that's got minimal additional value compared to coaching the Crusaders. And even those who've coached bigger teams struggle to translate that into meaningful statistics.
Which current international coaches have a higher winning percentage than Razor?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B on international experience, the point being that coaching a club team in a competition is a completely different kettle of fish to coaching a national side, particularly the ABs. International coaches struggling with sub-par club sides doesn't invalidate that.
Well - that's easy to state.
Show me some statistics and examples to prove it.
Who's currently doing better than Razor and why?
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
It will not be Ryan he is a great mate of Razors and Jason is pretty easy going he wouldn’t step on Razors toes.
That speculation is way off the mark.Hey mate, any info regarding whether Holland will have a replacement or does Ellison becomes the midfield coach?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B on international experience, the point being that coaching a club team in a competition is a completely different kettle of fish to coaching a national side, particularly the ABs. International coaches struggling with sub-par club sides doesn't invalidate that.
Well - that's easy to state.
Show me some statistics and examples to prove it.
Who's currently doing better than Razor and why?
I am not exactly sure what you mean by that, Razor is the only AB coach. He's doing about as well as Fozzie, and a lot worse than Hansen, Henry, Mitchell, etc... he's currently right down the bottom of the list of AB coaches by win rate. He's also continued in Fozzie's vein of setting records he doesn't want, like a 43-10 drubbing to SA at home, arguably the worst AB performance of all time.
It's pretty obvious the impact an experienced coach like Schmidt had when he turned Fozzie's rabble into a team that should have won the WC. It's not an outrageous claim to make that Schmidt would have hit the ground running if he took over and we would have been better for it, rather than watching Razor try to navigate the steep learning curve between coaching a club side versus coaching the ABs.
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@MacDazzler said in All Blacks 2025:
Mark Watson calling for Razor to be sacked and also all of his remaining assistants on radio today.
Mark Watson? Seriously?
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@No-Quarter I'm really asking for proof that previous international coaching experience is a massive advantage. I'm not entirely sure it is - I think a talented provincial coach is preferable to a bog-standard international coach. And a few rebuttals...
Ryan came in with zero international experience and improved the forwards as much as Schmidt did the backs.
They collectively both got thumped by the Jaapies at Twickenham, which was pretty much as bad as losing in Wellington this year.
As I point out above - it is Razor 4 - Schmidt 0 - and you've got to wonder whcich of Razor's 6 losses, Joe would have made enough difference to win?
According to Wiki Joe joined the coaching panel on August 17 2022 and subsequently we shipped losses to:
Argentina 18-25
SA 35-7
France 27-13
SA 12-11Plus a draw with England.
15 wins from 20 = 75%
We've lost to the same group of teams and the percentage is not much better - and with arguably better players.
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@restofit said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
It will not be Ryan he is a great mate of Razors and Jason is pretty easy going he wouldn’t step on Razors toes.
That speculation is way off the mark.Hey mate, any info regarding whether Holland will have a replacement or does Ellison becomes the midfield coach?
I haven’t heard anything as yet .
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They collectively both got thumped by the Jaapies at Twickenham, which was pretty much as bad as losing in Wellington this year.
Getting thumped in a throw away game amongst a sea of green is in no way as bad as getting embarrassed at home in the RC, that's a very odd take.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
Ex-All Black fuels speculation of rift between Robertson's coaching staff
Ex-All Black Israel Dagg has added fuel to speculation that a fall out with assistant coach Scott Hansen is the reason that Jason Holland has departed the All Blacks
Dagg's solution is for greater Crusaders echo chamber in coaching?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
It's not a fucking disaster!
Says the apologist for a record loss. At home.
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Put aside the ridiculous defence by reference to percentages and "what could've been", the simple fact remains what your eyes are telling you isn't imagined. A team near incapable of scoring in the final quarter, incoherent style of play somehow making us look like the unfit team on the field, poor impact from the bench, record losses, poor selections and a coach that looks mystified in media situations.
Meanwhile our opposition look like they have a clear structure they've bought into and understand.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia It's certainly Devil's advocacy in terms of the usual Fern circle-jerk.
If your post is an unusual Fern circle-jerk, it's still an interesting one.
I don't think, personally, the numbers by themselves have as much weight as before. Not with strong sides sending B or C squads. Not with the gaps in depth and performance across the top 12 or so teams.
And these discussions have too many subjective post-event criteria.
If we all agreed on what would be good goals beforehand, maybe there'd be less argument afterwards?
