All Blacks 2025
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Put aside the ridiculous defence by reference to percentages and "what could've been", the simple fact remains what your eyes are telling you isn't imagined. A team near incapable of scoring in the final quarter, incoherent style of play somehow making us look like the unfit team on the field, poor impact from the bench, record losses, poor selections and a coach that looks mystified in media situations.
Meanwhile our opposition look like they have a clear structure they've bought into and understand.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia It's certainly Devil's advocacy in terms of the usual Fern circle-jerk.
If your post is an unusual Fern circle-jerk, it's still an interesting one.
I don't think, personally, the numbers by themselves have as much weight as before. Not with strong sides sending B or C squads. Not with the gaps in depth and performance across the top 12 or so teams.
And these discussions have too many subjective post-event criteria.
If we all agreed on what would be good goals beforehand, maybe there'd be less argument afterwards? -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Mauss Ha - pointed that at you, because I thought I'd get a well considered response and I'm not disappointed!
You got me. But it’s an interesting discussion so I don’t mind being pulled into it.
But, if you've coached Japan or Italy or Fiji - I reckon that's got minimal additional value compared to coaching the Crusaders. And even those who've coached bigger teams struggle to translate that into meaningful statistics.
I can sympathize with your point because I also think that just having international experience in itself isn’t particularly valuable. John Kirwan coached Italy and Japan; Milton Haig coached Georgia; Alama Ieremia coached Samoa; Wayne Pivac coached Wales. I’m pretty sure that all of these guys would be terrible AB coaches.
But the point is that coaching internationally can make you a better coach: it forces you to adapt your systems to local strengths. Schmidt coached (alongside Cotter) a possession- and forward-based game at Clermont, then turned Leinster into an attacking machine before emphasizing kick- and ruck-heavy game plans with Ireland. Tony Brown turned Japanese fleet-footedness and mobility into an attacking advantage before adapting his attacking shape in order to incorporate big carriers with the Springboks. Cotter emphasizes possession, forward grunt and basics wherever he goes but is able to adapt as well, whether it’s Clermont, Scotland, Fiji or the Blues.
So this brings us back to Robertson. I agree that you don’t need experiences in order to know or learn certain things. But, looking at the current AB team, Robertson seems to have not understood one of the primary lessons of coaching in different environments: you need to respect local strengths and traditions. What is All Blacks rugby? Two things: basic skill execution done to perfection and counter-attacking dominance. What has the Rugby Championship shown once again? That the skillsets aren’t good enough and that the counter-attack is basically non-existent.
Perhaps if Robertson had coached Wales, Fiji or Japan, he would’ve realized that you can’t simply shape the team to your own designs without integrating and enabling that country’s strengths. It seems like a remarkably easy lesson but, looking at the ABs’ performances in 2024 and 2025, it’s something that this coaching group has consistently failed to implement.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter I'm really asking for proof that previous international coaching experience is a massive advantage. I'm not entirely sure it is - I think a talented provincial coach is preferable to a bog-standard international coach. And a few rebuttals...
Not really the same argument, I think posters here are arguing that all things being equal, international coaching experience is really important, but they'd agree a talented provincial coach is preferable to a bog-standard international one.
Last year I thought Razor's super experience showed he/his team could be ruthless and effective, and inventive enough. But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
If not Razor then his assistant coaches needed a variety of coaching experiences and I am not convinced overall they have that. Their focused Crusader tactics work at Super level but our Super comp hides too many weaknesses, the teams are too similar and this is exposed in terms of ABs coaching, strategic variety, and ability to innovate and respond not the next game, but the next half! So maybe winning 7 times consecutively (!) at Super level was actually a disadvantage to developing coaching resilience and innovation. Perhaps.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter I'm really asking for proof that previous international coaching experience is a massive advantage. I'm not entirely sure it is - I think a talented provincial coach is preferable to a bog-standard international coach. And a few rebuttals...
Ryan came in with zero international experience and improved the forwards as much as Schmidt did the backs.
They collectively both got thumped by the Jaapies at Twickenham, which was pretty much as bad as losing in Wellington this year.
As I point out above - it is Razor 4 - Schmidt 0 - and you've got to wonder whcich of Razor's 6 losses, Joe would have made enough difference to win?
According to Wiki Joe joined the coaching panel on August 17 2022 and subsequently we shipped losses to:
Argentina 18-25
SA 35-7
France 27-13
SA 12-11Plus a draw with England.
15 wins from 20 = 75%
We've lost to the same group of teams and the percentage is not much better - and with arguably better players.
Good story.
Except, Jason Ryan was the assistant coach of Fiji, working for Vern Cotter, signed through to the WC. He was doing it exactly as it should be done, working his way up with a very experienced hand.
The Fiji forwards were looking so good, there was quite a bit of talk about Ryan. They gave our forwards a good fucking hurry up when we played them.
The Fiji reaction to losing assistant Jason Ryan to the All Blacks
Fiji boss Vern Cotter has finally shared his thoughts on the sudden loss of forwards coach Jason Ryan to the All Blacks.
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Agree.
I now view SR as a talent indentification program for the AB team.
I dont expect players and coaches to come out of that competition, and immediately have an impact at the next level.
It'd great if they did, and in the past I would have thought that, but not anymore.
When you step up from super to international level, there is now quite a gap.
ABs v Boks/Fra/Eng; is now a very long way from Ders v Canes. -
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
what your eyes are telling you
Yep
The record is 7 and 2 right now.
Which is ok.
But the eye-test aint good. -
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They collectively both got thumped by the Jaapies at Twickenham, which was pretty much as bad as losing in Wellington this year.
Getting thumped in a throw away game amongst a sea of green is in no way as bad as getting embarrassed at home in the RC, that's a very odd take.
Never have you said a truer word, @Bones!
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The issue seems that we lack an identity right now, coupled with lack of consistency.
What exactly is it we are trying to do, it is hard to pin point a specific game plan (attack and defence) and when we do show glimpses, we then can't replicate it or do something different, making you wonder if the successful passage was a fluke rather than design.
Years gone by, we had attacking flair like no other, now, what are we? What defines this team?
Inconsistency, erratic and overuse of the boot, lack of finishing, let's hope those tour starts to give a better idea of what this team is trying to achieve.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
It's not a fucking disaster!
Maybe, but what IS a disaster is we ain't going anywhere - just bumping along the bottom. This despite the finest coach in NZ Super Rugby history and international experience not mattering (well, according to the stats).
I've never, ever seen an AB team simply give up as they did in Wellington. And right now I just can't see Robertson's AB's performing under pressure in a tight game like the AB's did in RWC2023 - despite what the stats say.
This EOYT will be a litmus test
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
Funnily enough, anyone arguing these very same points between 2021-23 was immediately labelled a Foster apologist.
Progress in a way, I guess - but at a cost.
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@Victor-Meldrew even though the writing was on the wall pre both Fozzie and Covid.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew even though the writing was on the wall pre both Fozzie and Covid.
Made worse by NZR apparently buying into the same group-think kool-aid. Arrogance in abundance.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
He has out Fostered Foster in this regard. Really odd. I expected a raft of changes in mid 2024 that never happened.
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No doubt the litmus test will be this tour we need to go through unbeaten in my eyes,Build something for next year we can not stumble through 2026 with a WC looming.
I always thought the coaching group looked unbalanced with too many people all thinking in slightly different directions.
If BB is back at 10 and we put Ioane in to the 23 or Proctor ends up back at 13 then Fucked if I know,Because a blue print for selection was that Perth test v Australia.
Darry needs to be on the bench with what we have for this tour LF starting or on the Bench or Clarke either way around works. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
Funnily enough, anyone arguing these very same points between 2021-23 was immediately labelled a Foster apologist.
Progress in a way, I guess - but at a cost.
I love how you compress and conflate everything!
Wanting to get rid of Foster doesn't mean one becomes a Razor fanatic.
I would have been happy with Joe, JJ./Brown or perhaps McMillan or Rennie.
Not Rangi or Warren. Not sure about Cotter.
I thought Razor would be better than he has been so far, I still think Razor is a better coach than Foster.
The difference was Joe but I don't recall if he expressed interest in continuing if Foster returned.
Ryan worked for both.
And I wouldn't have chosen the assistant coaches Razor did (or had to).
Whitelock is right, being stuck with assistants before being chosen has its disadvantages.
Regardless, Foster had to go. Whoever thinks they knew all along Razor's team would be as conservative and muddled as Foster's is just polishing their crystal balls. -
The other issue is that both of the last 2 coaching regimes were seen as a done deal, so some who should have had a shot, didnt take thier shot, and some that did, weren't given a fair shake, not to mention the fact you must roll up with your assistants in tow.
That should be part of the same process, have applicants for head coach, assistants, defence etc, then find out which will be the best fit.
Instead, we get what got.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
@No-Quarter said, "he's currently right down the bottom of the list of AB coaches by win rate. " I was just pointing out that he's really not. He's slightly below average.
A thing about guys disappearing overseas is that many or even most of them don't come back - at least not in the window when they're at their peak. The AB coaching job only comes up occasionally and if you're under contract elsewhere then you miss out.
I'd forgotten about Ryan and Fiji.
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@taniwharugby I sort of wonder whether all the people who should be contenders see coaching the ABs (or NZ Super teams) as a really plum job.
When Fozzie got the job it seemed like just Fozzie vs Razor and when Razor got the job, Razor vs Joseph.
Did other coaches think it was just a done deal or did they - just maybe - not want the pressure/pay/aggravation?
Certainly, some of the Super appointments have been a bit underwhelming in recent years. I seem to recall Tony Brown pretty much had to be coerced to take on the Head Coach role at the Highlanders, because no-one else apparently wanted it.
