All Blacks 2025
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter I'm really asking for proof that previous international coaching experience is a massive advantage. I'm not entirely sure it is - I think a talented provincial coach is preferable to a bog-standard international coach. And a few rebuttals...
Not really the same argument, I think posters here are arguing that all things being equal, international coaching experience is really important, but they'd agree a talented provincial coach is preferable to a bog-standard international one.
Last year I thought Razor's super experience showed he/his team could be ruthless and effective, and inventive enough. But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
If not Razor then his assistant coaches needed a variety of coaching experiences and I am not convinced overall they have that. Their focused Crusader tactics work at Super level but our Super comp hides too many weaknesses, the teams are too similar and this is exposed in terms of ABs coaching, strategic variety, and ability to innovate and respond not the next game, but the next half! So maybe winning 7 times consecutively (!) at Super level was actually a disadvantage to developing coaching resilience and innovation. Perhaps.
Agree.
I now view SR as a talent indentification program for the AB team.
I dont expect players and coaches to come out of that competition, and immediately have an impact at the next level.
It'd great if they did, and in the past I would have thought that, but not anymore.
When you step up from super to international level, there is now quite a gap.
ABs v Boks/Fra/Eng; is now a very long way from Ders v Canes. -
Put aside the ridiculous defence by reference to percentages and "what could've been", the simple fact remains what your eyes are telling you isn't imagined. A team near incapable of scoring in the final quarter, incoherent style of play somehow making us look like the unfit team on the field, poor impact from the bench, record losses, poor selections and a coach that looks mystified in media situations.
Meanwhile our opposition look like they have a clear structure they've bought into and understand.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
what your eyes are telling you
Yep
The record is 7 and 2 right now.
Which is ok.
But the eye-test aint good. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They collectively both got thumped by the Jaapies at Twickenham, which was pretty much as bad as losing in Wellington this year.
Getting thumped in a throw away game amongst a sea of green is in no way as bad as getting embarrassed at home in the RC, that's a very odd take.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
They collectively both got thumped by the Jaapies at Twickenham, which was pretty much as bad as losing in Wellington this year.
Getting thumped in a throw away game amongst a sea of green is in no way as bad as getting embarrassed at home in the RC, that's a very odd take.
Never have you said a truer word, @Bones!
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The issue seems that we lack an identity right now, coupled with lack of consistency.
What exactly is it we are trying to do, it is hard to pin point a specific game plan (attack and defence) and when we do show glimpses, we then can't replicate it or do something different, making you wonder if the successful passage was a fluke rather than design.
Years gone by, we had attacking flair like no other, now, what are we? What defines this team?
Inconsistency, erratic and overuse of the boot, lack of finishing, let's hope those tour starts to give a better idea of what this team is trying to achieve.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
It's not a fucking disaster!
Maybe, but what IS a disaster is we ain't going anywhere - just bumping along the bottom. This despite the finest coach in NZ Super Rugby history and international experience not mattering (well, according to the stats).
I've never, ever seen an AB team simply give up as they did in Wellington. And right now I just can't see Robertson's AB's performing under pressure in a tight game like the AB's did in RWC2023 - despite what the stats say.
This EOYT will be a litmus test
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter I'm really asking for proof that previous international coaching experience is a massive advantage. I'm not entirely sure it is - I think a talented provincial coach is preferable to a bog-standard international coach. And a few rebuttals...
Not really the same argument, I think posters here are arguing that all things being equal, international coaching experience is really important, but they'd agree a talented provincial coach is preferable to a bog-standard international one.
Last year I thought Razor's super experience showed he/his team could be ruthless and effective, and inventive enough. But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
If not Razor then his assistant coaches needed a variety of coaching experiences and I am not convinced overall they have that. Their focused Crusader tactics work at Super level but our Super comp hides too many weaknesses, the teams are too similar and this is exposed in terms of ABs coaching, strategic variety, and ability to innovate and respond not the next game, but the next half! So maybe winning 7 times consecutively (!) at Super level was actually a disadvantage to developing coaching resilience and innovation. Perhaps.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
Funnily enough, anyone arguing these very same points between 2021-23 was immediately labelled a Foster apologist.
Progress in a way, I guess - but at a cost.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
Funnily enough, anyone arguing these very same points between 2021-23 was immediately labelled a Foster apologist.
Progress in a way, I guess - but at a cost.
@Victor-Meldrew even though the writing was on the wall pre both Fozzie and Covid.
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@Victor-Meldrew even though the writing was on the wall pre both Fozzie and Covid.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew even though the writing was on the wall pre both Fozzie and Covid.
Made worse by NZR apparently buying into the same group-think kool-aid. Arrogance in abundance.
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And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
He has out Fostered Foster in this regard. Really odd. I expected a raft of changes in mid 2024 that never happened.
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No doubt the litmus test will be this tour we need to go through unbeaten in my eyes,Build something for next year we can not stumble through 2026 with a WC looming.
I always thought the coaching group looked unbalanced with too many people all thinking in slightly different directions.
If BB is back at 10 and we put Ioane in to the 23 or Proctor ends up back at 13 then Fucked if I know,Because a blue print for selection was that Perth test v Australia.
Darry needs to be on the bench with what we have for this tour LF starting or on the Bench or Clarke either way around works. -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
Funnily enough, anyone arguing these very same points between 2021-23 was immediately labelled a Foster apologist.
Progress in a way, I guess - but at a cost.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
But with the de-internationalisation of Super, the longterms effects of COVID isolationism (perhaps), coaching drain overseas, and arguably a much richer international competition overseas that we are not part of, I think I under-estimated it.
Funnily enough, anyone arguing these very same points between 2021-23 was immediately labelled a Foster apologist.
Progress in a way, I guess - but at a cost.
I love how you compress and conflate everything!
Wanting to get rid of Foster doesn't mean one becomes a Razor fanatic.
I would have been happy with Joe, JJ./Brown or perhaps McMillan or Rennie.
Not Rangi or Warren. Not sure about Cotter.
I thought Razor would be better than he has been so far, I still think Razor is a better coach than Foster.
The difference was Joe but I don't recall if he expressed interest in continuing if Foster returned.
Ryan worked for both.
And I wouldn't have chosen the assistant coaches Razor did (or had to).
Whitelock is right, being stuck with assistants before being chosen has its disadvantages.
Regardless, Foster had to go. Whoever thinks they knew all along Razor's team would be as conservative and muddled as Foster's is just polishing their crystal balls. -
The other issue is that both of the last 2 coaching regimes were seen as a done deal, so some who should have had a shot, didnt take thier shot, and some that did, weren't given a fair shake, not to mention the fact you must roll up with your assistants in tow.
That should be part of the same process, have applicants for head coach, assistants, defence etc, then find out which will be the best fit.
Instead, we get what got.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
@No-Quarter said, "he's currently right down the bottom of the list of AB coaches by win rate. " I was just pointing out that he's really not. He's slightly below average.
A thing about guys disappearing overseas is that many or even most of them don't come back - at least not in the window when they're at their peak. The AB coaching job only comes up occasionally and if you're under contract elsewhere then you miss out.
I'd forgotten about Ryan and Fiji.
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The other issue is that both of the last 2 coaching regimes were seen as a done deal, so some who should have had a shot, didnt take thier shot, and some that did, weren't given a fair shake, not to mention the fact you must roll up with your assistants in tow.
That should be part of the same process, have applicants for head coach, assistants, defence etc, then find out which will be the best fit.
Instead, we get what got.
@taniwharugby I sort of wonder whether all the people who should be contenders see coaching the ABs (or NZ Super teams) as a really plum job.
When Fozzie got the job it seemed like just Fozzie vs Razor and when Razor got the job, Razor vs Joseph.
Did other coaches think it was just a done deal or did they - just maybe - not want the pressure/pay/aggravation?
Certainly, some of the Super appointments have been a bit underwhelming in recent years. I seem to recall Tony Brown pretty much had to be coerced to take on the Head Coach role at the Highlanders, because no-one else apparently wanted it.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
@No-Quarter said, "he's currently right down the bottom of the list of AB coaches by win rate. " I was just pointing out that he's really not. He's slightly below average.
A thing about guys disappearing overseas is that many or even most of them don't come back - at least not in the window when they're at their peak. The AB coaching job only comes up occasionally and if you're under contract elsewhere then you miss out.
I'd forgotten about Ryan and Fiji.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
@No-Quarter said, "he's currently right down the bottom of the list of AB coaches by win rate. " I was just pointing out that he's really not. He's slightly below average.
A thing about guys disappearing overseas is that many or even most of them don't come back - at least not in the window when they're at their peak. The AB coaching job only comes up occasionally and if you're under contract elsewhere then you miss out.
I'd forgotten about Ryan and Fiji.
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Just disproven as the ABs literally took Ryan from his Fiji contract.
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Also, if he had been under contract until a WC, he would have been in an ideal situation to take over the position.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
And AB coaches with worse winning percentages than Razor - McDonald, Morrison, Marslin, Sullivan, Vodanovic, Stewart, Watson, Mains, Smith, Foster.
We definitely shouldn't appoint anyone whose name begins with M or S - sorry Joe!
so good work circling the Cantab wagons and setting up a straw man.
Question for me is this: would Razor have been better off coaching in a different environment after a few years of success - ie heading offshore in 2019. I would say yes - the experience you get is huge and drives massive development as a coach.
Sir Graham talked about how much he learned and changed as a coach as a result of Wales and particularly the Lions. It matters. More of the same doesn't lead to growth or prepare you for the different challenges that get thrown your way.
Anyway, it is what it is. The conservatism in selection is what has amazed me the most. I still can't understand the thinking behind it.
@No-Quarter said, "he's currently right down the bottom of the list of AB coaches by win rate. " I was just pointing out that he's really not. He's slightly below average.
A thing about guys disappearing overseas is that many or even most of them don't come back - at least not in the window when they're at their peak. The AB coaching job only comes up occasionally and if you're under contract elsewhere then you miss out.
I'd forgotten about Ryan and Fiji.
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Just disproven as the ABs literally took Ryan from his Fiji contract.
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Also, if he had been under contract until a WC, he would have been in an ideal situation to take over the position.
@gt12 I'm really talking about some of the big guns who should be contenders as ABs coach, who did their overseas time with big teams - Deans, Gatland, Rennie, Cotter.
Vern's come back, but it's too late for him - I believe he's only taking the Blues on a year-by-year basis? Too late for Robbie and Warren. Rennie's into his 60s, as well - is he an option for 2031?
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@gt12 I'm really talking about some of the big guns who should be contenders as ABs coach, who did their overseas time with big teams - Deans, Gatland, Rennie, Cotter.
Vern's come back, but it's too late for him - I believe he's only taking the Blues on a year-by-year basis? Too late for Robbie and Warren. Rennie's into his 60s, as well - is he an option for 2031?
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 I'm really talking about some of the big guns who should be contenders as ABs coach, who did their overseas time with big teams - Deans, Gatland, Rennie, Cotter.
Vern's come back, but it's too late for him - I believe he's only taking the Blues on a year-by-year basis? Too late for Robbie and Warren. Rennie's into his 60s, as well - is he an option for 2031?
Vern Cotter: 63
Robbie Deans: 66
Gatland: 62
Rennie: 61Razor: 51
One of these things is not like the other.
I notice you didn't bring up Jamie Joseph (55), who has been overseas and is now back looking for the role and is a contemporary.
McMillan is now overseas and will likely have a great CV to challenge (especially for an Asst. role) in a couple of years.Had Razor gone overseas in 2019 after being passed over for the AB role, he would have been the ideal age to come and have a go at the role.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 I'm really talking about some of the big guns who should be contenders as ABs coach, who did their overseas time with big teams - Deans, Gatland, Rennie, Cotter.
Vern's come back, but it's too late for him - I believe he's only taking the Blues on a year-by-year basis? Too late for Robbie and Warren. Rennie's into his 60s, as well - is he an option for 2031?
Vern Cotter: 63
Robbie Deans: 66
Gatland: 62
Rennie: 61Razor: 51
One of these things is not like the other.
I notice you didn't bring up Jamie Joseph (55), who has been overseas and is now back looking for the role and is a contemporary.
McMillan is now overseas and will likely have a great CV to challenge (especially for an Asst. role) in a couple of years.Had Razor gone overseas in 2019 after being passed over for the AB role, he would have been the ideal age to come and have a go at the role.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 I'm really talking about some of the big guns who should be contenders as ABs coach, who did their overseas time with big teams - Deans, Gatland, Rennie, Cotter.
Vern's come back, but it's too late for him - I believe he's only taking the Blues on a year-by-year basis? Too late for Robbie and Warren. Rennie's into his 60s, as well - is he an option for 2031?
Vern Cotter: 63
Robbie Deans: 66
Gatland: 62
Rennie: 61Razor: 51
Had Razor gone overseas in 2019 after being passed over for the AB role, he would have been the ideal age to come and have a go at the role.
If he'd come back. He might have been locked in with Scotland or whomever and missed the boat.
Those other guys left and didn't come back is the point I'm making.
Jamie's one who has come back and competed.
