All Blacks 2025
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If SB can recapture his form, then he and Holland with PT on the bench is seriously strong. If he can't recapture that form, then they will need to look for a new captain after the tour. Trouble is, there aren't many obvious options to take over. People have vouched for Ardie, but his decision making is not crash hot, twice he has attempted chip kicks from our own 22 at awful times in the match.
I think we have a couple of future AB captains in Roigard and Sititi, but Sititi got the 2nd season blues (which he is now overcoming), and it'd be too much to put on Roigard's plate right now given his inexperience how dependent we already are on him.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 Well, it's not often the captain gets dumped - you have to go back to about 1989.
And it's a boring question if you allow Scott to be dumped, since a fair proportion of non-Crusaders fans will advocate for it.
Why not be innovative and have him as the team captain? That doesn't mean he starts every game. Put Codie Taylor at captain when Scott's form isn't good enough.
Here's the issue: As you are explaining it, they should avoid the hard calls because no one has done it for 30 odd years.
And, non Cantab supporters may argue for it, because on form there would little reason for Scott to be thrown back to the starting job if everyone was fit.
But, they aren't - Pat T and Vaaii are out.
So, for this week, it wouldn't be a surprise to see Lord moved back to the bench, and Barrett back in alongside Holland. Darry could be a smokey for a bench role, but that seems hard on Lord.
Not sure the captaincy can work that way.
Don't know what job you do - but, imagine if your CEO came in and said - your manager's been a bit shit lately, so we're going to send him off to be the filing clerk for a few months and you're in charge.
A couple of months later - he looks like he's recaptured his form. Right - you guys are all back to your old jobs and he's back giving the orders.
I think he's got to be gone - as I think Taine and Reuben were when new regimes came in.
Chiefs did it well, but I'm not actually suggesting it. The point though is that he may not be able to hold his spot as the captain with the way these younger guys are playing. I hope that the coaches are open enough next year to consider benching him - we can't carry our captain, they have to secure their spot on merit alone.
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@gt12 I do go back to Steve Hansen's mantra - that experience is important.
It's not everything - but, Steve finally went away from it in 2019 and I reckon it cost him.
Can't carry people forever waiting for them to recapture form, but there's no reason Scott can't get back to his best and he's shown signs at time this year.
I'd be keeping the faith for now and I'm sure they will.
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Ok Razor.
Pat T has 58 fucking tests, he's been an AB for 11 fucking years.
Vaa'ii has 45 fucking tests, he's not a newbie.
Holland will have more than 30 tests by the time we get to the WC.Experience is not the be all and end all.
Samuel Whitelock debuted in 2010 and started the WC final the following year. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 Well, it's not often the captain gets dumped - you have to go back to about 1989.
And it's a boring question if you allow Scott to be dumped, since a fair proportion of non-Crusaders fans will advocate for it.
Aren't there any Crusaders fans who don't prefer Scott B as captain/automatic lock pick?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
If SB can recapture his form, then he and Holland with PT on the bench is seriously strong. If he can't recapture that form, then they will need to look for a new captain after the tour. Trouble is, there aren't many obvious options to take over. People have vouched for Ardie, but his decision making is not crash hot, twice he has attempted chip kicks from our own 22 at awful times in the match.
I think we have a couple of future AB captains in Roigard and Sititi, but Sititi got the 2nd season blues (which he is now overcoming), and it'd be too much to put on Roigard's plate right now given his inexperience how dependent we already are on him.
agree with this.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
I'd be keeping the faith for now and I'm sure they will.
Yes I think they are loyal to him and they'll reckon he'll come right.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 Well, it's not often the captain gets dumped - you have to go back to about 1989.
And it's a boring question if you allow Scott to be dumped, since a fair proportion of non-Crusaders fans will advocate for it.
Aren't there any Crusaders fans who don't prefer Scott B as captain/automatic lock pick?
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@Snowy said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 Well, it's not often the captain gets dumped - you have to go back to about 1989.
And it's a boring question if you allow Scott to be dumped, since a fair proportion of non-Crusaders fans will advocate for it.
Aren't there any Crusaders fans who don't prefer Scott B as captain/automatic lock pick?
That's probably because there are bugger all of us on here.
For what it's worth, I think being captain has harmed his game. And captaincy doesn't seem a natural fit for him.
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@hikastags said in All Blacks 2025:
Lineout has regressed over the season
Maybe because Lomax is a better lifter than Newell ? Having tall props sure helps a lot.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
It's not complicated. Pick our best players and regain our steel. And our results will improve by 10-15 points per game.
I know I sound like an insufferable cliche generator these days.
But there are no men in the team.
We are a terribly nice bunch of clean shaven good looking lads.
The atmosphere is collegiate, lacks edge, no biff, no puffed up chests. Very passive.
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Time to cast the net ahead. How do you fix this? There is so much wrong with this team when you dig down into it. Who knows who will be coach, but here's my two sense worth.
Captain
Scott Barrett is a problem - but this is a problem which has plagued the All Blacks for the best part of eight years. Since give or take the end of 2018, for the best part of the period our captain has arguably only been in the team because he is well, the captain. Read was done by 2019, Cane struggled for consistent form from 2020-2023, and Scott Barrett has never really grasped it. This needs to be nipped in the bud. You could go Codie Taylor or Ardie Savea, but I just think this team is screaming out for something totally fresh. I'm not in the environment, but I'd be looking at co-captains. One issue we have, is there are few ABs right now who are guaranteed starters, who are also going to play most of the game. It could be a risk, but I'd go with Tupou Vaa'i and Jordie Barrett as co-captains.With a new captain instilled, we need to focus on a harder edge, so how does this effect the playing squad?
Front Row
Prop is one position where we are fine. All the props we have used this year outside of Lomax have been good, and Lomax is presumably just a form issue. Codie Taylor still has plenty of value as the starting hooker, but I think it is all to play for in behind him. Samisoni Taukei'aho is a good ball carrier, but his lineout and scrummaging work doesn't really seem to be up to scratch. Given Aumua can't stay fit, I think it is time to find out how good George Bell really is. Whether he was brought in prematurely is irrelevant now. FWIW, I would start him next week, but going forward, he is surely a big part of the All Blacks.Lock
Having lost the captaincy, I think the writing is on the rule for Scooter in this regime. Fabian Holland, Tupou Vaa'i and Patrick Tuipulotu have vastly outplayed him this year, and Josh Lord has arguably been the player of the Northern Tour. That's your four locks, and if you should need a fifth one if Vaa'i is required on the blindside, that is Sam DarryLoose Forward
We need to be a tougher in the loose I feel. I think Vaa'i offers that hard edge, so in the absence of a better option, I'd play him on the blindside. Lakai shifts to seven, with Sititi at eight. How to bulk out the squad? Ardie definitely still of value off the bench, so you need two more - a blindside and another number eight. I can't understand why Lio-Willie was sidelined - he come back in as the other number eight. We are on the lookout for a big fucker to do the hard yards at six. Flanders, Howden, Haig, Stodart shape as the ones to watch through Super for me. Parker has been a massive let down, and Kirifi probably never should have been picked in the first place. Jacobson can't stay fit so he is moved on tooHalfback
Cam Roigard has been the All Blacks best player this year, but at what stage does his fitness start to become a bit of a concern? Regardless, he is clearly number one. The current retards get what they deserve for backing Ratima and Christie. The other two next year should be whichever two of Pledger, Fakatava and Hotham have the best Super campaigns.First Five
Beauden Barrett has to go. Has to go. He is simply too inconsistent. I think in the absence of an obvious better option, for the moment you'd have to lean for McKenzie at 10, but also in a remoddelled ABs, you could opt for a different style of 10. I remain unconvinced in Jacomb's kicking abilities, and Reihana is a bit beige and I think would come unstuck when challenged with the pace of test rugby. One to follow across Super Rugby.The Rest of the Backline
Jordie Barrett has been instilled as captain, and remains an obvious starter - but where? Lets kill two birds with one stone. Will Jordan is the world's best winger, but he isn't a top-line playmaker. We also can't catch the high ball. Move Jordie back to 15. That leaves spaces at 12, 13 and on the left wing. I think Quinn Tupaea has plenty to offer with a consistent run, so he plays at 12.For mine, Proctor has been the letdown of the year, and is not worth persisting with.
Tavatavanawai and Fainga'anuku both lack the top line pace to be starting wingers, and lack the direction to be your starting centre, but they are the ideal players to have on the bench to provide punch.
ALB is done, and needs to be moved on. Ioane is also past his best, but is our best defensive centre currently available. I'd be looking at him and Brayden Ennor, who should have been brought back into the fold for this end of year tour.
As for the other winger spot, you are looking for a lethal left winger. Caleb Tangitau is that guy. He might have deficiencies, but there is no substitute for pure pace and power. Carter is workmanlike, but lacks X-Factor for me.
I like Narawa and Clarke as squad options.
There will obviously be guys through Super Rugby who put their hand up, and I think at hooker and in the midfield the chance is really there for someone to bolt through the door. I think they will take 43 players on the big tour, and here is a potential new-look squad. Some of the squad picks are wildly speculative, but you get the idea.
A potential new look All Blacks to tour South Africa next year
- Ethan de Groot
- Codie Taylor
- Fletcher Newell
- Josh Lord
- Fabian Holland
- Tupou Vaa'i (c)
- Peter Lakai
- Wallace Sititi
- Cam Roigard
- Damian McKenzie
- Caleb Tangitau
- Quinn Tupaea
- Brayden Ennor
- Will Jordan
- Jordie Barrett (c)
- George Bell
- Tamaiti Williams
- Pasilio Tosi
- Patrick Tuipulotu
- Ardie Savea
- Dylan Pledger
- Ruben Love
- Timoci Tavatavanawai
Spare Props: Ollie Norris, Tyrel Lomax, Josh Fusitua, George Dyer
Spare Hookers: Samisoni Taukei'aho, Jack Taylor
Spare Locks: Sam Darry, Josh Beehre
Spare Loose Forwards: Will Stodart, Dalton Papalii, Christian Lio-Willie, Devan Flanders
Spare Halfbacks: Noah Hotham, Folau Fakatava
Spare First Five: Josh Jacomb
Spare Midfielders: Dallas McLeod, Rieko Ioane
Spare Outside Backs: Caleb Clarke, Emoni Narawa, Jacob Ratumaitavuki Kneepkens -
This is the third time I have posted this.
What has changed as of Nov 15th 2025?This is a post I made over a year ago.......after the Argentina loss. Whats changed?
There is a stench of 2004-2015 Wallabies off the Allblacks and has been since about 2018.
It harks back to when Beale, O'Connor, Ashely Cooper, Giteau et al had a different shirt on their back from week to week. Fullback one week, running the cutter the next. No specialists and no development of specialists. An a le carte menu at the selection table.
Our problem stems from the continued selection of two of my favourite Allblacks who are both former world players of the year. Ardie Savea and Beauden Barrett. Their presence has historically lead to selection headaches in both the forwards and backs. We end up filling in the blanks around them.
There was time where maybe one position in an Allblack squad was a talking point in a build up to a test week. Now the back row, back three, locks, centres and scrum halves are all up for discussion. And rightfully so. Predicted or desired lineups vary from person to person, in contrast to 2015 where maybe 14 of the 15 spots would be deemed a general consensus.
The initial rot as I see it, started in Lions test 2 in 2017 when SBW dropped the shoulder into Anthony Watson....red card ensued, game lost, 3rd test Jerome "we have a deal" Garces and the "Aura" has been steadily corroding from that day onwards. I see SBW's red card as a sliding doors moment, and we have been on the back foot ever since.
This rot was further compounded by Hansen staying on until 2019, doing the amazon documentary and getting high off his own supply, seeing himself as some sort of rugby savant. The dual pivot nonsense, omission of Laumape, dropping of Ben Smith and Barrett's selection at 6 in the semi.
After the 2019 exit (in my own personal opinion) it should have been the end of Barrett at 15, the end of Goodhue and ALB and the end of Perenara, to name but a few.
Then the Boks leave Super Rugby and we spend half the year playing touch footie against shite Aussie teams, belting them and thinking we are still the dogs bollox.
We then hire Hansens assistant who gives the captaincy to the very bloke who was dropped in the semi final of the 2019 World Cup, a selection he himself would have had a say in. Joined up thinking eh.
The avalanche of red and yellow cards continues and we go from being the most un-carded team in history to the most carded in the space of a few years.
Foster has a torrid time, admittedly during a difficult covid environment, but it cant be denied he set some unenviable records. After his tenure we still dont have a backrow and we now find ourselves again with ALB and Beauden Barrett out in the backline playing basketball and running sideways, a lesson I thought would have been learned post 2019.
There are also a few intangible things that I noticed from 2017 onwards which have contributed to our decline.
Our coaches rightly or wrongly are waaaaaaaay too nice in the media, particularly post match. If we get hatcheted then say we got fucking hatcheted. It wont give you this weeks loss back, but it will help you going forward. Similarly, the time wasting, tactical injuries and boot lace re-tieing, cheating and skullduggery has to be called out, and called out directly. Not in guarded language which Razor did today like Fozzie did before him. Stop trying to be so nice and so liked. Name the players and name the infraction. It's professional sport.
Rassie and Andy Farrell are putting us in the ha'penny place with their "big dick energy". Andy Farrell for example defended his sons millionth suspension for a shoulder to the head and did it with a straight face and called the media out for a witch hunt. Even though his son was bang to rights. They dont give an inch. Rassie single handedly turned the Lions series on its head with his video stunt. In 40 years people will look back and Rassie's record will speak for itself. Nobody will remember Foster for being civil.
Playing the Allblacks is nice these days, half full stadium, sedate crowd, and a team full of well manicured boy band types. There is no feral atmosphere, no foaming at the mouth coach and no grizzled men or leaders in the team. Savea's post match interview/presser was like watching a shy Catholic in the confession box.
We are beaten in the dugout, in the stands and on the pitch.
Similarly the media (im looking at you Kirwan, Goldie and friends) dont ask any hard questions any more or hold peoples feet to the fire. Every player gets a round of applause and a pat on the back. You never hear them say "TJ's pass is too slow", "this lad cant tackle". It's all pally pally and incestuous.
I was a Razor evangelist, and to be honest they HAD to give him the job with his record. What he has done since is on him and him alone. Selection looks like a dogs breakfast. Some of his interviews leave me uncomfortable too "we need to find our connection piece". Fuck off man......go out and smack the other team in the fucking mouths. 38 points at home to Argentina. Give me a break.
There are a few simple things that would go a long way to helping fix this. Jordan or Love is the fullback. End of Story. Sayonara TJ and Finlay forever, bye bye. Ratima, Roigard and Hotham going forward.
You cant have Papalii, Jacobsen, Blackadder and Cane in a squad. 2 of them have to go. Pick your poison.
Pick specialists. Pick big people , pick fast people. Stop picking Swiss army knife players.
The crest on the front is bigger than any name on the back.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
Time to cast the net ahead. How do you fix this? There is so much wrong with this team when you dig down into it. Who knows who will be coach, but here's my two sense worth.
Captain
Scott Barrett is a problem - but this is a problem which has plagued the All Blacks for the best part of eight years. Since give or take the end of 2018, for the best part of the period our captain has arguably only been in the team because he is well, the captain. Read was done by 2019, Cane struggled for consistent form from 2020-2023, and Scott Barrett has never really grasped it. This needs to be nipped in the bud. You could go Codie Taylor or Ardie Savea, but I just think this team is screaming out for something totally fresh. I'm not in the environment, but I'd be looking at co-captains. One issue we have, is there are few ABs right now who are guaranteed starters, who are also going to play most of the game. It could be a risk, but I'd go with Tupou Vaa'i and Jordie Barrett as co-captains.With a new captain instilled, we need to focus on a harder edge, so how does this effect the playing squad?
Front Row
Prop is one position where we are fine. All the props we have used this year outside of Lomax have been good, and Lomax is presumably just a form issue. Codie Taylor still has plenty of value as the starting hooker, but I think it is all to play for in behind him. Samisoni Taukei'aho is a good ball carrier, but his lineout and scrummaging work doesn't really seem to be up to scratch. Given Aumua can't stay fit, I think it is time to find out how good George Bell really is. Whether he was brought in prematurely is irrelevant now. FWIW, I would start him next week, but going forward, he is surely a big part of the All Blacks.Lock
Having lost the captaincy, I think the writing is on the rule for Scooter in this regime. Fabian Holland, Tupou Vaa'i and Patrick Tuipulotu have vastly outplayed him this year, and Josh Lord has arguably been the player of the Northern Tour. That's your four locks, and if you should need a fifth one if Vaa'i is required on the blindside, that is Sam DarryLoose Forward
We need to be a tougher in the loose I feel. I think Vaa'i offers that hard edge, so in the absence of a better option, I'd play him on the blindside. Lakai shifts to seven, with Sititi at eight. How to bulk out the squad? Ardie definitely still of value off the bench, so you need two more - a blindside and another number eight. I can't understand why Lio-Willie was sidelined - he come back in as the other number eight. We are on the lookout for a big fucker to do the hard yards at six. Flanders, Howden, Haig, Stodart shape as the ones to watch through Super for me. Parker has been a massive let down, and Kirifi probably never should have been picked in the first place. Jacobson can't stay fit so he is moved on tooHalfback
Cam Roigard has been the All Blacks best player this year, but at what stage does his fitness start to become a bit of a concern? Regardless, he is clearly number one. The current retards get what they deserve for backing Ratima and Christie. The other two next year should be whichever two of Pledger, Fakatava and Hotham have the best Super campaigns.First Five
Beauden Barrett has to go. Has to go. He is simply too inconsistent. I think in the absence of an obvious better option, for the moment you'd have to lean for McKenzie at 10, but also in a remoddelled ABs, you could opt for a different style of 10. I remain unconvinced in Jacomb's kicking abilities, and Reihana is a bit beige and I think would come unstuck when challenged with the pace of test rugby. One to follow across Super Rugby.The Rest of the Backline
Jordie Barrett has been instilled as captain, and remains an obvious starter - but where? Lets kill two birds with one stone. Will Jordan is the world's best winger, but he isn't a top-line playmaker. We also can't catch the high ball. Move Jordie back to 15. That leaves spaces at 12, 13 and on the left wing. I think Quinn Tupaea has plenty to offer with a consistent run, so he plays at 12.For mine, Proctor has been the letdown of the year, and is not worth persisting with.
Tavatavanawai and Fainga'anuku both lack the top line pace to be starting wingers, and lack the direction to be your starting centre, but they are the ideal players to have on the bench to provide punch.
ALB is done, and needs to be moved on. Ioane is also past his best, but is our best defensive centre currently available. I'd be looking at him and Brayden Ennor, who should have been brought back into the fold for this end of year tour.
As for the other winger spot, you are looking for a lethal left winger. Caleb Tangitau is that guy. He might have deficiencies, but there is no substitute for pure pace and power. Carter is workmanlike, but lacks X-Factor for me.
I like Narawa and Clarke as squad options.
There will obviously be guys through Super Rugby who put their hand up, and I think at hooker and in the midfield the chance is really there for someone to bolt through the door. I think they will take 43 players on the big tour, and here is a potential new-look squad. Some of the squad picks are wildly speculative, but you get the idea.
A potential new look All Blacks to tour South Africa next year
- Ethan de Groot
- Codie Taylor
- Fletcher Newell
- Josh Lord
- Fabian Holland
- Tupou Vaa'i (c)
- Peter Lakai
- Wallace Sititi
- Cam Roigard
- Damian McKenzie
- Caleb Tangitau
- Quinn Tupaea
- Brayden Ennor
- Will Jordan
- Jordie Barrett (c)
- George Bell
- Tamaiti Williams
- Pasilio Tosi
- Patrick Tuipulotu
- Ardie Savea
- Dylan Pledger
- Ruben Love
- Timoci Tavatavanawai
Spare Props: Ollie Norris, Tyrel Lomax, Josh Fusitua, George Dyer
Spare Hookers: Samisoni Taukei'aho, Jack Taylor
Spare Locks: Sam Darry, Josh Beehre
Spare Loose Forwards: Will Stodart, Dalton Papalii, Christian Lio-Willie, Devan Flanders
Spare Halfbacks: Noah Hotham, Folau Fakatava
Spare First Five: Josh Jacomb
Spare Midfielders: Dallas McLeod, Rieko Ioane
Spare Outside Backs: Caleb Clarke, Emoni Narawa, Jacob Ratumaitavuki KneepkensHard to disagree with any of that.
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@rewa267 said in All Blacks 2025:
Don’t think Jordie Barrett’s a 15. I would have Will Jordan at Fullback. Leicester at centre and Caleb Clarke on the left wing. Folau Fakatava as the backup 9 over Ratima. Big issue is Roigards health
Don't let @Bones hear you say that
