All Blacks - New Coach Selection
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@antipodean said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Chris said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
ok so this year with a new coach was does success look like for everyone, and on the other side what does another failure look like and are we in too much shit if it is a failure.
Retaining the Bledisloe.
Beating South Africa for the tests I'm attending.
Flogging the tier 2 nations.I guess it depends on how many tests you plan to attend....
@canefan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@antipodean said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Chris said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
ok so this year with a new coach was does success look like for everyone, and on the other side what does another failure look like and are we in too much shit if it is a failure.
Retaining the Bledisloe.
Beating South Africa for the tests I'm attending.
Flogging the tier 2 nations.I guess it depends on how many tests you plan to attend....
Exactly, this now means @antipodean has a KPI of attending all SA tests.
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@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Isn't the All Black ethos that we aim to win every game (unrealistic though that might be)?
How could we possibly then set a KPI of anything other than winning RWC2027?
We might not sack the coach for failing to achieve that KPI - but, I'm certainly not signing on for any target less at RWCs.
are you confusing a KPI and a target/goal, definately the aim is to win every game including the RWC...but a KPI is a judge of your performce...ie...if you dont achieve it you're not performing....and i think the RWC is fucking hard to win even with the best team in the world firing on all cylinders
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Isn't the All Black ethos that we aim to win every game (unrealistic though that might be)?
How could we possibly then set a KPI of anything other than winning RWC2027?
We might not sack the coach for failing to achieve that KPI - but, I'm certainly not signing on for any target less at RWCs.
are you confusing a KPI and a target/goal, definately the aim is to win every game including the RWC...but a KPI is a judge of your performce...ie...if you dont achieve it you're not performing....and i think the RWC is fucking hard to win even with the best team in the world firing on all cyliders
I think they're the same thing in this instance.
In my mind we're in four-year cycles, where the end goal is to win the RWC.
Hard though it may be - I certainly would not be cool with seeing "Made the semis" (Tick)!
I think for the large majority of the public - anything other than winning is a fail - so, for them (and me) I have both the goal and the final KPI of the cycle as Win RWC 2027.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Warren Gatland would be a terrible choice IMO.
Over 200 tests coaching experience, three Grand Slams, two RWC Semi Finals, a European Cup, an NPC title and almost unrivalled knowledge and understanding of the game.
But he really stank the joint out with the Chiefs a few years ago.
Life wouldn't be dull with Gats at the wheel.
@sparky said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Warren Gatland would be a terrible choice IMO.
Over 200 tests coaching experience, three Grand Slams, two RWC Semi Finals, a European Cup, an NPC title and almost unrivalled knowledge and understanding of the game.
But he really stank the joint out with the Chiefs a few years ago.
Life wouldn't be dull with Gats at the wheel.
People forget that, before COVID, the Chiefs were doing very well. I am not trying to give him the COVID pass, but it is worth pointing out that his entire time at the Chiefs (and in NZ for that matter) was not entirely shit.
In any case, I can only see him getting the job if neither Joseph nor Rennie are willing to take this job on as a 2 year rescue job with the potential for a renewal after 2027 if things go OK. That's actually a pretty realistic outcome when you think about the circumstances in which they are taking the job and the range of potentially bad onfield outcomes in the next couple of years.
For a 2-year rescue job, we could do so much worse than Gats.
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@sparky yeah, if that episode with the Chiefs hadn't happened, you'd have to see him as a reasonable candidate in the circumstances. Simple direct game plan, easy to get a quick bounce in performance in a limited time frame.
(But it did.)@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@sparky yeah, if that episode with the Chiefs hadn't happened, you'd have to see him as a reasonable candidate in the circumstances. Simple direct game plan, easy to get a quick bounce in performance in a limited time frame.
(But it did.)I think it's quite remarkable that this relatively short fallow period in Gats' career is focused on so much as a reason to rule him out of ever being AB coach. Especially when here we all are saying that one of Razor's issues was that he never had a rough period before getting the AB coaching job.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@sparky yeah, if that episode with the Chiefs hadn't happened, you'd have to see him as a reasonable candidate in the circumstances. Simple direct game plan, easy to get a quick bounce in performance in a limited time frame.
(But it did.)I think it's quite remarkable that this relatively short fallow period in Gats' career is focused on so much as a reason to rule him out of ever being AB coach. Especially when here we all are saying that one of Razor's issues was that he never had a rough period before getting the AB coaching job.
@junior said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
I think it's quite remarkable that this relatively short fallow period in Gats' career is focused on so much as a reason to rule him out of ever being AB coach. Especially when here we all are saying that one of Razor's issues was that he never had a rough period before getting the AB coaching job.
Not remarkable when you think back to that magical trajectory word.
Sure the idea is they encounter pain and challenge overseas but the idea is they learn how to overcome it, not sink under the waters.Lost all 8 games in 2020
Lost 1-2 with Lions against SA in 2021 (not a terrible result considering but....)
Dec 2022–Feb 2025 with Wales: 6 of 26 matches ( 23% win rate) dropped Wales to 12th, finally lost home game against Italy. 14 successive Test match defeats. Contract was to 2027.
Refer https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/cpwrj451k95o
To his credit he had offered to resign in 2024.. -
The new group come in at a considerable disadvantage. Right now I see us behind SA, France and England in the race for RWC27
@canefan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The new group come in at a considerable disadvantage. Right now I see us behind SA, France and England in the race for RWC27
Seems like a bit of catstrophising.
Under Razor's tenure we played each of England and France four times and won three against each.
SA are clearly the best team in the world, but even then we beat them last year.
If we're expecting significant improvement under a new regime, nothing looks particularly insurmountable.
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@canefan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The new group come in at a considerable disadvantage. Right now I see us behind SA, France and England in the race for RWC27
Seems like a bit of catstrophising.
Under Razor's tenure we played each of England and France four times and won three against each.
SA are clearly the best team in the world, but even then we beat them last year.
If we're expecting significant improvement under a new regime, nothing looks particularly insurmountable.
@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@canefan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The new group come in at a considerable disadvantage. Right now I see us behind SA, France and England in the race for RWC27
Seems like a bit of catstrophising.
Under Razor's tenure we played each of England and France four times and won three against each.
SA are clearly the best team in the world, but even then we beat them last year.
If we're expecting significant improvement under a new regime, nothing looks particularly insurmountable.
Razor never faced France's full strength team (not his fault). That game in Wellington was galling, as was the capitulation at Twickenham
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@canefan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The new group come in at a considerable disadvantage. Right now I see us behind SA, France and England in the race for RWC27
Seems like a bit of catstrophising.
Under Razor's tenure we played each of England and France four times and won three against each.
SA are clearly the best team in the world, but even then we beat them last year.
If we're expecting significant improvement under a new regime, nothing looks particularly insurmountable.
@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Under Razor's tenure we played each of England and France four times and won three against each.
Well sure......
Scraping past England at home in Razor's first 2 tests....scraping past France B in 2 of the 3 early tests last year......George Ford absolutely shitting the bed at Twickers at the death in 2024.....
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@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@canefan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The new group come in at a considerable disadvantage. Right now I see us behind SA, France and England in the race for RWC27
Seems like a bit of catstrophising.
Under Razor's tenure we played each of England and France four times and won three against each.
SA are clearly the best team in the world, but even then we beat them last year.
If we're expecting significant improvement under a new regime, nothing looks particularly insurmountable.
Razor never faced France's full strength team (not his fault). That game in Wellington was galling, as was the capitulation at Twickenham
@canefan Did he not play them in France and just lose by a point - somewhat unluckily as I recall?
There were two shockers in his tenure (England and SA) - but, if we're to assume he was fucking hopeless as a coach then there's very little ground to be made up by his successor on anyone except SA.
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@canefan Did he not play them in France and just lose by a point - somewhat unluckily as I recall?
There were two shockers in his tenure (England and SA) - but, if we're to assume he was fucking hopeless as a coach then there's very little ground to be made up by his successor on anyone except SA.
@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@canefan Did he not play them in France and just lose by a point - somewhat unluckily as I recall?
There were two shockers in his tenure (England and SA) - but, if we're to assume he was fucking hopeless as a coach then there's very little ground to be made up by his successor on anyone except SA.
We lacked direction and discipline. If the new coach can restore that we can close the gap
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@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@canefan Did he not play them in France and just lose by a point - somewhat unluckily as I recall?
There were two shockers in his tenure (England and SA) - but, if we're to assume he was fucking hopeless as a coach then there's very little ground to be made up by his successor on anyone except SA.
We lacked direction and discipline. If the new coach can restore that we can close the gap
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@sparky said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Warren Gatland would be a terrible choice IMO.
Over 200 tests coaching experience, three Grand Slams, two RWC Semi Finals, a European Cup, an NPC title and almost unrivalled knowledge and understanding of the game.
But he really stank the joint out with the Chiefs a few years ago.
Life wouldn't be dull with Gats at the wheel.
People forget that, before COVID, the Chiefs were doing very well. I am not trying to give him the COVID pass, but it is worth pointing out that his entire time at the Chiefs (and in NZ for that matter) was not entirely shit.
In any case, I can only see him getting the job if neither Joseph nor Rennie are willing to take this job on as a 2 year rescue job with the potential for a renewal after 2027 if things go OK. That's actually a pretty realistic outcome when you think about the circumstances in which they are taking the job and the range of potentially bad onfield outcomes in the next couple of years.
For a 2-year rescue job, we could do so much worse than Gats.
@junior said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
People forget that, before COVID, the Chiefs were doing very well.
Didn't the chiefs win the cut down comp immediately after Gatland left, during COVID?
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@canefan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The new group come in at a considerable disadvantage. Right now I see us behind SA, France and England in the race for RWC27
Seems like a bit of catstrophising.
Under Razor's tenure we played each of England and France four times and won three against each.
SA are clearly the best team in the world, but even then we beat them last year.
If we're expecting significant improvement under a new regime, nothing looks particularly insurmountable.
@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@canefan said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The new group come in at a considerable disadvantage. Right now I see us behind SA, France and England in the race for RWC27
Seems like a bit of catstrophising.
Under Razor's tenure we played each of England and France four times and won three against each.
Two of those games we won against England were after terrible performances when we limped home. England hammered us out of sight in the most recent game at Twickenham. And they didn't get out of third gear.
The wins against France were against France C when most of their superstars at home. And they were unconvincing wins.
And then there was losing to Argentina home and away too.
We are not going to forget for a long time how woeful the performances were under Robertson's tenure.
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@canefan Other than SA, I'm far from convinced there is a gap.
SA gave France a decent thumping.
Get the likes of Jordie, Lomax, Patty T. and Richie the Mo back and we should be more than competitive with England and France.
@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@canefan Other than SA, I'm far from convinced there is a gap.
Genuinely think there's now a very big gap in self-belief, handling pressure and closing out games.
That said, If we can get back to the sort of discipline and self-belief we had in RWC, then that gap pretty much disappears. Actually think the skills and cattle are there - and probably better than they were in 2023.
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@junior said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
People forget that, before COVID, the Chiefs were doing very well.
Didn't the chiefs win the cut down comp immediately after Gatland left, during COVID?
@Bones said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@junior said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
People forget that, before COVID, the Chiefs were doing very well.
Didn't the chiefs win the cut down comp immediately after Gatland left, during COVID?
No - they were playing quite well until Covid (lost to a late Hurricanes penalty in their final game before the comp halted which I think was their only loss).
Then the cutdown NZ only comp started and they couldn’t win a game. -
@junior said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
People forget that, before COVID, the Chiefs were doing very well.
Didn't the chiefs win the cut down comp immediately after Gatland left, during COVID?
@Bones said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@junior said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
People forget that, before COVID, the Chiefs were doing very well.
Didn't the chiefs win the cut down comp immediately after Gatland left, during COVID?
They made the 2021 SRA GF but lost
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Here's the Chiefs seasons people are talking about:
https://silverfern.rugby/sr-results?type=team&season=2025&opp=all&loc=all&teamseason=all&team=chiefs&start=2020&end=2021Won 4/6 before the lock downs. The streak was 11 losses in a row. No wins for a calendar year
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@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@canefan Other than SA, I'm far from convinced there is a gap.
Genuinely think there's now a very big gap in self-belief, handling pressure and closing out games.
That said, If we can get back to the sort of discipline and self-belief we had in RWC, then that gap pretty much disappears. Actually think the skills and cattle are there - and probably better than they were in 2023.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Chris-B. said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@canefan Other than SA, I'm far from convinced there is a gap.
Genuinely think there's now a very big gap in self-belief, handling pressure and closing out games.
That said, If we can get back to the sort of discipline and self-belief we had in RWC, then that gap pretty much disappears. Actually think the skills and cattle are there - and probably better than they were in 2023.
I believe gaps in belief etc can be closed pretty quickly , at various times we witnessed teams do it to us when we were front runners
