Worst All Black RWC exits
-
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
The ABs very clearly lost the ability to go into siege mentality in the past cycle there were at least two games which were dubbed must win and the biggest games of the season going into them and they came up with flat performances (3rd Lions test, Dublin 2018). Without that ability to go up a gear they were always vulnerable to someone's best shot.
IMO caused by a drop in overall talent levels. And the fact that we had it too easy for too long. A lot of players didn't know anything about a tough time. There was no heartbreaker to focus the energy. There was no overwhelming public vitriol to combat. A decade to a decade and a half of unheard of success, where every dent was smoothed out a week later in emphatic fashion. You can't build mental resilience by winning all the time.
Richie, Dan, Woody, Kev, Nonu, even Conrad Smith, those guys knew what it meant to lose. And that drove them.
Who in 2019 could say the same thing?
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Richie, Dan, Woody, Kev, Nonu, even Conrad Smith, those guys knew what it meant to lose. And that drove them.
Who in 2019 could say the same thing?Let's just hope there's a few around from 2019's debacle in 2023.
-
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@akan004 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
In 2019 the bottom line is the ABs were as good as any other team at the tournament. But it was also obvious no one was good enough to take three teams best shot in three consecutive weeks - the ABS especially when you looked at their back half of 2018 which was supposed to be a dry run where they almost lost in Pretoria and Tickers and then lost in Dublin.
The ABs very clearly lost the ability to go into siege mentality in the past cycle there were at least two games which were dubbed must win and the biggest games of the season going into them and they came up with flat performances (3rd Lions test, Dublin 2018). Without that ability to go up a gear they were always vulnerable to someone's best shot.
They needed an QF or semi against an easier side or a team who played their final the week earlier.
Japan really did fuck the whole thing up for us in 2019
Yeah, and yet so many people on here were happy for us to play Ireland.
It was pretty funny how we bitch slapped them though. That was good viewing
We smashed them up front before we smashed them out wide. Should have done the same to England
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
We smashed them up front before we smashed them out wide. Should have done the same to England
We were going to smash their lineout by picking Scott Barrett apparently.
That went well.
-
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
We smashed them up front before we smashed them out wide. Should have done the same to England
We were going to smash their lineout by picking Scott Barrett apparently.
That went well.
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
-
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
-
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
-
The 2019 result was different to almost every other world cup exit because we weren't even the form team going into the tournament.
It wasn't some big surprise when England bailed us out, we had been on a rapid downward trajectory ever since Wayne Smith left.
@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
The 2019 result was different to almost every other world cup exit because we weren't even the form team going into the tournament.
It wasn't some big surprise when England bailed us out, we had been on a rapid downward trajectory ever since Wayne Smith left.
Welcome aboard
Wayne@sdrggyy -
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
The blatant Chiefs favouritism has started very early from Fozzie
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
We still should have found a way to win though, given the ball and territory, and forward dominance. There was a collective failing of on-field leadership, not helped by losing both our 10s. A perfect storm of absolute shit.
I've come round to thinking the 2019 exit was worse. Can't blame the reffing, minimal injuries and plenty of opportunities to seize control of the game and win it. Instead, we played like headless chooks.
In '07 everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong, but yeah, we should have found a way. At least 2007 exit set the scene for the 2011 & 2015 wins. Just hope last years abject failure does the same
I think I said it earlier in the thread,
2007 was an emotional loss , maybe i had a more emotional attachment to that team ,dunno
but 2019 I was more angry, it pissed me off the most , we were putrid , no excuses , wasnt a choke , their form leading in was up and down,
England turned up with a plan to beat us , and we looked clueless , and the worst part - soft
@kiwiinmelb said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew said in [Worst All Black RWC exits](
but 2019 I was more angry, it pissed me off the most , we were putrid , no excuses , wasnt a choke , their form leading in was up and down,
England turned up with a plan to beat us , and we looked clueless , and the worst part - soft
2019 is way down on worst RWC Exits
ABs were convincingly beaten Out-coached & outclassed English dynamism and intensity was of a different nature
Remember watching ABs play Pumas and not score a single point in the 2nd half was the 1st time I suspected ABs were a diminishing force
At least compared to others iterations who had dominated all others from 2008-2015
-
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
The blatant Chiefs favouritism has started very early from Fozzie
@ACT-Crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
The blatant Chiefs favouritism has started very early from Fozzie
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
-
@ACT-Crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
The blatant Chiefs favouritism has started very early from Fozzie
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
-
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
There were 3 that day. Clearly 4 was the sweet spot.
-
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
There were 3 that day. Clearly 4 was the sweet spot.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
There were 3 that day. Clearly 4 was the sweet spot.
holy crap, just found out there is another! Five Barretts!
-
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
-
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
I can't be the only one who thinks the team plays so much better when Cane's on the field
-
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
That could just be a ruse to deflect all the blame onto Shag, though
-
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
That could just be a ruse to deflect all the blame onto Shag, though
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
That could just be a ruse to deflect all the blame onto Shag, though
Further proof that Fozzie is indeed a deep thinker and has cunning, which is what we need after the last year of Shag (who may have had a stroke, otherwise what else could explain his decisions of last year?)
-
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
@kiwiinmelb said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
The alarm bells should have started ringing after the two matches against the Boks in 2018. In both, we were completely shit and they exposed our frailties upfront, our lack of physicality in the midfield, our inability to deal with the rush defence and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance (at least in the first test). I don't think any match before then exposed all of our weaknesses in such a manner.
-
@kiwiinmelb said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
The alarm bells should have started ringing after the two matches against the Boks in 2018. In both, we were completely shit and they exposed our frailties upfront, our lack of physicality in the midfield, our inability to deal with the rush defence and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance (at least in the first test). I don't think any match before then exposed all of our weaknesses in such a manner.
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance
For me, this was the key thing. Instead of the team thinking cooly and calmly when under the pump, they started to give out that wild-eyed look - esp. the leaders.
Dunno if Gilbert Enoka is still involved with the team but if not, he should be.
-
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance
For me, this was the key thing. Instead of the team thinking cooly and calmly when under the pump, they started to give out that wild-eyed look - esp. the leaders.
Dunno if Gilbert Enoka is still involved with the team but if not, he should be.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance
For me, this was the key thing. Instead of the team thinking cooly and calmly when under the pump, they started to give out that wild-eyed look - esp. the leaders.
Dunno if Gilbert Enoka is still involved with the team but if not, he should be.
I believe he was still at the time and has been for ages.
I always wonder about the value of his input, TBH. He gets a lot of credit from everyone involved for building the mental skills, but it's only really between 2010 and 2015 when those skills were at their peak. A lot of this, to me, actually comes to McCaw and the other guys' personal resilience and mental skills built after some pretty tough times. Even then, McCaw says that a lot of what he learnt was actually from Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model - not anything developed by Enoka. As I understand it, McCaw got involved with Evans on his own initiative in 2010 - it had little if any thing to do with Enoka.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance
For me, this was the key thing. Instead of the team thinking cooly and calmly when under the pump, they started to give out that wild-eyed look - esp. the leaders.
Dunno if Gilbert Enoka is still involved with the team but if not, he should be.
I believe he was still at the time and has been for ages.
I always wonder about the value of his input, TBH. He gets a lot of credit from everyone involved for building the mental skills, but it's only really between 2010 and 2015 when those skills were at their peak. A lot of this, to me, actually comes to McCaw and the other guys' personal resilience and mental skills built after some pretty tough times. Even then, McCaw says that a lot of what he learnt was actually from Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model - not anything developed by Enoka. As I understand it, McCaw got involved with Evans on his own initiative in 2010 - it had little if any thing to do with Enoka.
@junior Thanks for that background - interesting stuff
