Worst All Black RWC exits
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@ACT-Crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
The blatant Chiefs favouritism has started very early from Fozzie
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
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@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
There were 3 that day. Clearly 4 was the sweet spot.
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@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
There were 3 that day. Clearly 4 was the sweet spot.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
There were 3 that day. Clearly 4 was the sweet spot.
holy crap, just found out there is another! Five Barretts!
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@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
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@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
I can't be the only one who thinks the team plays so much better when Cane's on the field
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@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
That could just be a ruse to deflect all the blame onto Shag, though
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@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
That could just be a ruse to deflect all the blame onto Shag, though
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Victor-Meldrew that was the bizaare thing, with the team selected we thought we must have had a game plan to utilise it, but we didnt. Instead playing to the plan that needed Cane out there.
I hope that wasn't Fozzie's master plan....
Considering Fozzie has named Cane as his captain I don't think leaving him on the bench features in his master plan.
That could just be a ruse to deflect all the blame onto Shag, though
Further proof that Fozzie is indeed a deep thinker and has cunning, which is what we need after the last year of Shag (who may have had a stroke, otherwise what else could explain his decisions of last year?)
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
@kiwiinmelb said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
The alarm bells should have started ringing after the two matches against the Boks in 2018. In both, we were completely shit and they exposed our frailties upfront, our lack of physicality in the midfield, our inability to deal with the rush defence and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance (at least in the first test). I don't think any match before then exposed all of our weaknesses in such a manner.
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@kiwiinmelb said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
people barely gave a fuck about either of those things.
I did. The Ireland loss I was fucking furious. Especially given the lead up looked like a car crash waiting to happen.
Which one?
I think Chicago could be written off because well... it happened in Chicago.
Dublin was infuriating because it was heavily hyped and they didn't front the week before against England.
That is probably when the alarm bells first started to ring not just by the score , but how we failed to get anything threatening going
An under strength England team pushed us all the way and then Ireland beat us ,
I think we got too comfortable playing so many games against Australian teams who almost play into our hands , when these other teams threw something different against us ,particularly in defense, we struggled to cope
The alarm bells should have started ringing after the two matches against the Boks in 2018. In both, we were completely shit and they exposed our frailties upfront, our lack of physicality in the midfield, our inability to deal with the rush defence and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance (at least in the first test). I don't think any match before then exposed all of our weaknesses in such a manner.
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance
For me, this was the key thing. Instead of the team thinking cooly and calmly when under the pump, they started to give out that wild-eyed look - esp. the leaders.
Dunno if Gilbert Enoka is still involved with the team but if not, he should be.
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance
For me, this was the key thing. Instead of the team thinking cooly and calmly when under the pump, they started to give out that wild-eyed look - esp. the leaders.
Dunno if Gilbert Enoka is still involved with the team but if not, he should be.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance
For me, this was the key thing. Instead of the team thinking cooly and calmly when under the pump, they started to give out that wild-eyed look - esp. the leaders.
Dunno if Gilbert Enoka is still involved with the team but if not, he should be.
I believe he was still at the time and has been for ages.
I always wonder about the value of his input, TBH. He gets a lot of credit from everyone involved for building the mental skills, but it's only really between 2010 and 2015 when those skills were at their peak. A lot of this, to me, actually comes to McCaw and the other guys' personal resilience and mental skills built after some pretty tough times. Even then, McCaw says that a lot of what he learnt was actually from Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model - not anything developed by Enoka. As I understand it, McCaw got involved with Evans on his own initiative in 2010 - it had little if any thing to do with Enoka.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance
For me, this was the key thing. Instead of the team thinking cooly and calmly when under the pump, they started to give out that wild-eyed look - esp. the leaders.
Dunno if Gilbert Enoka is still involved with the team but if not, he should be.
I believe he was still at the time and has been for ages.
I always wonder about the value of his input, TBH. He gets a lot of credit from everyone involved for building the mental skills, but it's only really between 2010 and 2015 when those skills were at their peak. A lot of this, to me, actually comes to McCaw and the other guys' personal resilience and mental skills built after some pretty tough times. Even then, McCaw says that a lot of what he learnt was actually from Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model - not anything developed by Enoka. As I understand it, McCaw got involved with Evans on his own initiative in 2010 - it had little if any thing to do with Enoka.
@junior Thanks for that background - interesting stuff
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I'm shocked at how quickly Fat guts plummeted in my mind.
If somebody else described my 180degree honest thoughts uturn about Hansen, I'd accuse them of being shallow and disloyal.I used to rave about him, but after the last couple of years I can't summon up the same affection.
It was the " only a game" and cheery smuggish responses after a loss that had me wondering if this guy wasn't opting out of the comforting, yet contrived, winning is everything AB tenet that's served us so well. That last game (and some others previous) personified an impotency and lack of mongrel that leaves a bitter taste.
Ah fuck it, a fine coach no debate, but a pox on him nevertheless
99 and 07 tied for how distraught I was for months (years?) but 99 had the "she'll be right" malaise
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
and also our lack of composure under pressure with the match in the balance
For me, this was the key thing. Instead of the team thinking cooly and calmly when under the pump, they started to give out that wild-eyed look - esp. the leaders.
Dunno if Gilbert Enoka is still involved with the team but if not, he should be.
I believe he was still at the time and has been for ages.
I always wonder about the value of his input, TBH. He gets a lot of credit from everyone involved for building the mental skills, but it's only really between 2010 and 2015 when those skills were at their peak. A lot of this, to me, actually comes to McCaw and the other guys' personal resilience and mental skills built after some pretty tough times. Even then, McCaw says that a lot of what he learnt was actually from Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model - not anything developed by Enoka. As I understand it, McCaw got involved with Evans on his own initiative in 2010 - it had little if any thing to do with Enoka.
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model
On this, it didn't seem to help Read or Whitelock to the same extent. I think we have to accept that 1) McCaw was truly the GOAT and 2) that these theories are useful for not foolproof. So, the performance benefits for some players aren't really that obvious. Clearly, it's about finding theories that work for different players.
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@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
There were 3 that day. Clearly 4 was the sweet spot.
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If only he'd have been able to start it before the England match but sadly we were at the peak of Hansen's blatant anything Barrett favouritism.
Absolutely. Clearly 3 Barretts are better than 2, and we'd have won.
HANSEN ARE YOU LISTENING? MORE BARRETTS ARE THE ANSWER. KANE IS DUE A CALLUP.
There were 3 that day. Clearly 4 was the sweet spot.
One is a jailbird isnt he?
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model
On this, it didn't seem to help Read or Whitelock to the same extent. I think we have to accept that 1) McCaw was truly the GOAT and 2) that these theories are useful for not foolproof. So, the performance benefits for some players aren't really that obvious. Clearly, it's about finding theories that work for different players.
@gt12 yeah I think McCaw was just one of those rare players/athletes that was so driven, he looked for ways to improve himself and be the very best he could be with the natural talent he was given, which he did.
His drive and desire to succeed will no doubt have pushed many alongside him to be better also
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@gt12 yeah I think McCaw was just one of those rare players/athletes that was so driven, he looked for ways to improve himself and be the very best he could be with the natural talent he was given, which he did.
His drive and desire to succeed will no doubt have pushed many alongside him to be better also
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@gt12 yeah I think McCaw was just one of those rare players/athletes that was so driven, he looked for ways to improve himself and be the very best he could be with the natural talent he was given, which he did.
His drive and desire to succeed will no doubt have pushed many alongside him to be better also
Same could be said of a number of his teammates and their drive to improve when he was playing, e.g. Ma'a Nonu.
Dunno if it was McCaw's greatness and drive rubbing off on them or we were fortunate to have those players - probably both.
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@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@gt12 yeah I think McCaw was just one of those rare players/athletes that was so driven, he looked for ways to improve himself and be the very best he could be with the natural talent he was given, which he did.
His drive and desire to succeed will no doubt have pushed many alongside him to be better also
Same could be said of a number of his teammates and their drive to improve when he was playing, e.g. Ma'a Nonu.
Dunno if it was McCaw's greatness and drive rubbing off on them or we were fortunate to have those players - probably both.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@gt12 yeah I think McCaw was just one of those rare players/athletes that was so driven, he looked for ways to improve himself and be the very best he could be with the natural talent he was given, which he did.
His drive and desire to succeed will no doubt have pushed many alongside him to be better also
Same could be said of a number of his teammates and their drive to improve when he was playing, e.g. Ma'a Nonu.
Dunno if it was McCaw's greatness and drive rubbing off on them or we were fortunate to have those players - probably both.
We just witnessed a generational group of players. The come down was inevitable
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@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@gt12 yeah I think McCaw was just one of those rare players/athletes that was so driven, he looked for ways to improve himself and be the very best he could be with the natural talent he was given, which he did.
His drive and desire to succeed will no doubt have pushed many alongside him to be better also
Same could be said of a number of his teammates and their drive to improve when he was playing, e.g. Ma'a Nonu.
Dunno if it was McCaw's greatness and drive rubbing off on them or we were fortunate to have those players - probably both.
@Victor-Meldrew possibly a bit of both, but maybe McCaw was the catalyst that drove those around him to strive for greatness, that again, a number achieved
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@Victor-Meldrew possibly a bit of both, but maybe McCaw was the catalyst that drove those around him to strive for greatness, that again, a number achieved
@taniwharugby @Victor-Meldrew I think that it is a happy piece of happenstance coupled with one or two incredible people. You were blessed with a great centre pairing, the best fly half to have played the game, the best openside on the flank of a bloody good pack and a succession of decent wingers. On top of that, In McCaw you had a very good skipper and one of those people that drag everyone around them up a notch or two. Sometimes a notch that those people thought was beyond them. Given all that it is unsurprising that levels have dropped off a bit in the aftermath.
Edit: Forgot to mention the most important part - the cloak of invisibility :face_with_stuck-out_tongue_winking_eye:
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model
On this, it didn't seem to help Read or Whitelock to the same extent. I think we have to accept that 1) McCaw was truly the GOAT and 2) that these theories are useful for not foolproof. So, the performance benefits for some players aren't really that obvious. Clearly, it's about finding theories that work for different players.
@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Ceri Evan's and his red / blue model
On this, it didn't seem to help Read or Whitelock to the same extent. I think we have to accept that 1) McCaw was truly the GOAT and 2) that these theories are useful for not foolproof. So, the performance benefits for some players aren't really that obvious. Clearly, it's about finding theories that work for different players.
I suppose there is some merit in the view that obviously one size doesn't fit all. Then, there is the question of how much of this stuff really continue on after McCaw left? Did Read carry it on with as much importance / vigour (if at all)? How many of the younger guys practised their mental skills with the right intent and a full understanding of their importance (having not been through the train wreck of 2007 to fully appreciate the need for mental clarity under pressure)?
