The Cane vs Savea Debate
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@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@taniwharugby said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
they focused on the lineout concerns first
Yet did little to utilise the advantage of selecting an extra lock.
Appeared we were gonna target thier line-out, but didn't, were we being trying to be tricky?
It’s basically all Scott Barrett’s fault for only providing height, he should have played a lot more like Savea AND Cane as well.
I put the blame solely on him.
07 was his fault too
no, that was Leon MacDonald's. So was 2003.
I haven't worked out which Crusader to pin '99 on, but '95 was Mehrts.
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@taniwharugby said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
they focused on the lineout concerns first
Yet did little to utilise the advantage of selecting an extra lock.
Appeared we were gonna target thier line-out, but didn't, were we being trying to be tricky?
It’s basically all Scott Barrett’s fault for only providing height, he should have played a lot more like Savea AND Cane as well.
I put the blame solely on him.
07 was his fault too
no, that was Leon MacDonald's. So was 2003.
I haven't worked out which Crusader to pin '99 on, but '95 was Mehrts.
How long have you been on the Fern, and you're not blaming Deans?
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@DMX said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
This is spot on, think I said the same in another post. The core of losing this game was Whitelock/Retallick/Read coming up empty. Ardie was probably our most consistent forward last year he was always going to win the head to head with Cane. Having Savea and Cane on the field at the same time was a pretty inspired decison and it had worked so well in the previous games, I just think Hansen outsmarted himself, but was not the losing of the game.
Cane pre-injury this isn't even a debate, but coming off the injury they were pretty close. Read however was absolutely past it and a liability and in a winner takes all scenario should have been the one to ride the pine. I can't think of an AB who went so off the boil for so long and was allowed to retain his spot (and I'm not having a go, I know a lot of it is injury related).
A two year long brain explosion from Hansen there - didn't have the mettle to kill his darlings and when he did it was at reactionary and the wrong ones.
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@Crucial said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Donsteppa said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@taniwharugby said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
they focused on the lineout concerns first
Yet did little to utilise the advantage of selecting an extra lock.
Appeared we were gonna target thier line-out, but didn't, were we being trying to be tricky?
It’s basically all Scott Barrett’s fault for only providing height, he should have played a lot more like Savea AND Cane as well.
I put the blame solely on him.
07 was his fault too
no, that was Leon MacDonald's. So was 2003.
I haven't worked out which Crusader to pin '99 on, but '95 was Mehrts.
Perennial favourite Reuben Thorne was the starting blindside in the 1999 semi final.
Glad you pointed that out. I don't think anyone noticed
I remember a Stephen Jones article after the match saying something to the effect of: 'afterwards we had to check the programme to see if the All Blacks had selected a blindside'
@Donsteppa said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Crucial said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Donsteppa said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@taniwharugby said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
they focused on the lineout concerns first
Yet did little to utilise the advantage of selecting an extra lock.
Appeared we were gonna target thier line-out, but didn't, were we being trying to be tricky?
It’s basically all Scott Barrett’s fault for only providing height, he should have played a lot more like Savea AND Cane as well.
I put the blame solely on him.
07 was his fault too
no, that was Leon MacDonald's. So was 2003.
I haven't worked out which Crusader to pin '99 on, but '95 was Mehrts.
Perennial favourite Reuben Thorne was the starting blindside in the 1999 semi final.
Glad you pointed that out. I don't think anyone noticed
I remember a Stephen Jones article after the match saying something to the effect of: 'afterwards we had to check the programme to see if the All Blacks had selected a blindside'
That’s actually quite witty. Surely someone else wrote it ?
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@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
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@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
I’m as confused as you are by my mention. You’re right, he’s not from HB and conversely I always liked him as a player.
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@taniwharugby said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
they focused on the lineout concerns first
Yet did little to utilise the advantage of selecting an extra lock.
Appeared we were gonna target thier line-out, but didn't, were we being trying to be tricky?
It’s basically all Scott Barrett’s fault for only providing height, he should have played a lot more like Savea AND Cane as well.
I put the blame solely on him.
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@taniwharugby said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
they focused on the lineout concerns first
Yet did little to utilise the advantage of selecting an extra lock.
Appeared we were gonna target thier line-out, but didn't, were we being trying to be tricky?
It’s basically all Scott Barrett’s fault for only providing height, he should have played a lot more like Savea AND Cane as well.
I put the blame solely on him.
I know you're being facetious, but having a third lock meant that we got completely owned at the breakdown by the two English flyers (and Itoje, who was also a menace there). What makes it so galling is that we got zero benefit at the line out despite having 4 jumpers - in fact we got owned at the line out too as they pinched more of our ball than we did of theirs
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@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@taniwharugby said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
they focused on the lineout concerns first
Yet did little to utilise the advantage of selecting an extra lock.
Appeared we were gonna target thier line-out, but didn't, were we being trying to be tricky?
It’s basically all Scott Barrett’s fault for only providing height, he should have played a lot more like Savea AND Cane as well.
I put the blame solely on him.
07 was his fault too
no, that was Leon MacDonald's. So was 2003.
I haven't worked out which Crusader to pin '99 on, but '95 was Mehrts.
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@taniwharugby said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
they focused on the lineout concerns first
Yet did little to utilise the advantage of selecting an extra lock.
Appeared we were gonna target thier line-out, but didn't, were we being trying to be tricky?
It’s basically all Scott Barrett’s fault for only providing height, he should have played a lot more like Savea AND Cane as well.
I put the blame solely on him.
07 was his fault too
no, that was Leon MacDonald's. So was 2003.
I haven't worked out which Crusader to pin '99 on, but '95 was Mehrts.
Reuben Thorne was definitely at fault in 99
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@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
I’m as confused as you are by my mention. You’re right, he’s not from HB and conversely I always liked him as a player.
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
I’m as confused as you are by my mention. You’re right, he’s not from HB and conversely I always liked him as a player.
I know right. Sort your shit @mariner4life....he’s no Zac Guildford
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@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
I’m as confused as you are by my mention. You’re right, he’s not from HB and conversely I always liked him as a player.
I know right. Sort your shit @mariner4life....he’s no Zac Guildford
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
I’m as confused as you are by my mention. You’re right, he’s not from HB and conversely I always liked him as a player.
I know right. Sort your shit @mariner4life....he’s no Zac Guildford
wind your neck in, my shit is totally sorted
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@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
I’m as confused as you are by my mention. You’re right, he’s not from HB and conversely I always liked him as a player.
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
I’m as confused as you are by my mention. You’re right, he’s not from HB and conversely I always liked him as a player.
so you are totally cool with the credit for 87 being given to him
Over, say a certain AB 7 who you think is the the GOAT
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@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
I’m as confused as you are by my mention. You’re right, he’s not from HB and conversely I always liked him as a player.
so you are totally cool with the credit for 87 being given to him
Over, say a certain AB 7 who you think is the the GOAT
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@MN5 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Craig Green.
Nepia will be along shortly
Since when is Craig Green from Hawke’s Bay ?
I’m as confused as you are by my mention. You’re right, he’s not from HB and conversely I always liked him as a player.
so you are totally cool with the credit for 87 being given to him
Over, say a certain AB 7 who you think is the the GOAT
Oh, I don't think the credit should ever go to one person when we win (plus not mentioning Kaino in 2011 is more egregious than Green) but I'm on board with fully blaming Scott Barrett for last years loss.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
It's always worked well for the All Blacks when we've looked to alter our team structure and move away from our strengths because of another team's strength. We're going to have to import some Afrikaans.
Odd for you to bring this up in this thread considering the benching of Cane last year was this exact scenario and England’s early run might have been stopped if we had his dominant tackling.
Less so the benching of Cane than the selection of Barrett at 6 in order to counter England's line-out strength. Maybe Cane was collateral damage in that scenario, but do you seriously think an openside flankers' somewhat fabled tackling ability was going to make the difference? Nooo.
Lol this is joe post, right? You're seriously saying in a match where the opposition regularly gained metres and smashed us in the breakdown - which were significant contributors to the result - that having a better tackler on the field wouldn't have helped?
@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
It's always worked well for the All Blacks when we've looked to alter our team structure and move away from our strengths because of another team's strength. We're going to have to import some Afrikaans.
Odd for you to bring this up in this thread considering the benching of Cane last year was this exact scenario and England’s early run might have been stopped if we had his dominant tackling.
Less so the benching of Cane than the selection of Barrett at 6 in order to counter England's line-out strength. Maybe Cane was collateral damage in that scenario, but do you seriously think an openside flankers' somewhat fabled tackling ability was going to make the difference? Nooo.
Lol this is joe post, right? You're seriously saying in a match where the opposition regularly gained metres and smashed us in the breakdown - which were significant contributors to the result - that having a better tackler on the field wouldn't have helped?
Do you think we would have won had Cane's possibly marginally better tacking ability been available from the start?? We were outplayed in numerous areas, so that's brilliant stuff.
Did you miss the bit where I said the bigger difference was selecting S Barrett out of position in order to counter England at set piece?? Which was clearly a big fail.
It's amazing how Cane's magical tackling was almost never mentioned in several years but now it's an elixir that could have won us a third consecutive RWC.
The All Blacks are often less physical than opposition sides, and particularly England and South Africa. But after one bad RWC loss some of you want to move away from our ball-running strength and select a defensive openside flanker. Wonderful. Next you'll want to play 10 man rugby.
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@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
It's always worked well for the All Blacks when we've looked to alter our team structure and move away from our strengths because of another team's strength. We're going to have to import some Afrikaans.
Odd for you to bring this up in this thread considering the benching of Cane last year was this exact scenario and England’s early run might have been stopped if we had his dominant tackling.
Less so the benching of Cane than the selection of Barrett at 6 in order to counter England's line-out strength. Maybe Cane was collateral damage in that scenario, but do you seriously think an openside flankers' somewhat fabled tackling ability was going to make the difference? Nooo.
Lol this is joe post, right? You're seriously saying in a match where the opposition regularly gained metres and smashed us in the breakdown - which were significant contributors to the result - that having a better tackler on the field wouldn't have helped?
Do you think we would have won had Cane's possibly marginally better tacking ability been available from the start?? We were outplayed in numerous areas, so that's brilliant stuff.
Did you miss the bit where I said the bigger difference was selecting S Barrett out of position in order to counter England at set piece?? Which was clearly a big fail.
It's amazing how Cane's magical tackling was almost never mentioned in several years but now it's an elixir that could have won us a third consecutive RWC.
The All Blacks are often less physical than opposition sides, and particularly England and South Africa. But after one bad RWC loss some of you want to move away from our ball-running strength and select a defensive openside flanker. Wonderful. Next you'll want to play 10 man rugby.
@shark aaahhhh almost never mentioned? Fuck the internet is as slow as everything else in Christchurch
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Finding it interesting that Cane's game has been reduced down to just tackling. Evidence is there's a whole lot more to it than that. Are there no breakdowns or anything anymore?
@Bones said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Finding it interesting that Cane's game has been reduced down to just tackling. Evidence is there's a whole lot more to it than that. Are there no breakdowns or anything anymore?
The idea is to utterly minimise Cane's ability and effectiveness to the point you're asking why he's not playing field hockey instead.
I suspect @shark is doing this in order to have some Canterbury player made captain.
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@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
It's always worked well for the All Blacks when we've looked to alter our team structure and move away from our strengths because of another team's strength. We're going to have to import some Afrikaans.
Odd for you to bring this up in this thread considering the benching of Cane last year was this exact scenario and England’s early run might have been stopped if we had his dominant tackling.
Less so the benching of Cane than the selection of Barrett at 6 in order to counter England's line-out strength. Maybe Cane was collateral damage in that scenario, but do you seriously think an openside flankers' somewhat fabled tackling ability was going to make the difference? Nooo.
Lol this is joe post, right? You're seriously saying in a match where the opposition regularly gained metres and smashed us in the breakdown - which were significant contributors to the result - that having a better tackler on the field wouldn't have helped?
Do you think we would have won had Cane's possibly marginally better tacking ability been available from the start?? We were outplayed in numerous areas, so that's brilliant stuff.
Did you miss the bit where I said the bigger difference was selecting S Barrett out of position in order to counter England at set piece?? Which was clearly a big fail.
It's amazing how Cane's magical tackling was almost never mentioned in several years but now it's an elixir that could have won us a third consecutive RWC.
The All Blacks are often less physical than opposition sides, and particularly England and South Africa. But after one bad RWC loss some of you want to move away from our ball-running strength and select a defensive openside flanker. Wonderful. Next you'll want to play 10 man rugby.
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
It's amazing how Cane's magical tackling was almost never mentioned in several years but now it's an elixir that could have won us a third consecutive RWC.
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@Bones said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Finding it interesting that Cane's game has been reduced down to just tackling. Evidence is there's a whole lot more to it than that. Are there no breakdowns or anything anymore?
The idea is to utterly minimise Cane's ability and effectiveness to the point you're asking why he's not playing field hockey instead.
I suspect @shark is doing this in order to have some Canterbury player made captain.
@antipodean said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Bones said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Finding it interesting that Cane's game has been reduced down to just tackling. Evidence is there's a whole lot more to it than that. Are there no breakdowns or anything anymore?
The idea is to utterly minimise Cane's ability and effectiveness to the point you're asking why he's not playing field hockey instead.
I suspect @shark is doing this in order to have some Canterbury player made captain.
Also the claim that selecting Cane would change the AB game style - a style that Cane has played in 60 odd tests.
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@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
It's always worked well for the All Blacks when we've looked to alter our team structure and move away from our strengths because of another team's strength. We're going to have to import some Afrikaans.
Odd for you to bring this up in this thread considering the benching of Cane last year was this exact scenario and England’s early run might have been stopped if we had his dominant tackling.
Less so the benching of Cane than the selection of Barrett at 6 in order to counter England's line-out strength. Maybe Cane was collateral damage in that scenario, but do you seriously think an openside flankers' somewhat fabled tackling ability was going to make the difference? Nooo.
Lol this is joe post, right? You're seriously saying in a match where the opposition regularly gained metres and smashed us in the breakdown - which were significant contributors to the result - that having a better tackler on the field wouldn't have helped?
Do you think we would have won had Cane's possibly marginally better tacking ability been available from the start?? We were outplayed in numerous areas, so that's brilliant stuff.
Did you miss the bit where I said the bigger difference was selecting S Barrett out of position in order to counter England at set piece?? Which was clearly a big fail.
It's amazing how Cane's magical tackling was almost never mentioned in several years but now it's an elixir that could have won us a third consecutive RWC.
The All Blacks are often less physical than opposition sides, and particularly England and South Africa. But after one bad RWC loss some of you want to move away from our ball-running strength and select a defensive openside flanker. Wonderful. Next you'll want to play 10 man rugby.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Do you think we would have won had Cane's possibly marginally better tacking ability been available from the start??
If any tackling ability was available at the very start we may have won, yes.
@rotated said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Do you think we would have won had Cane's possibly marginally better tacking ability been available from the start??
If any tackling ability was available at the very start we may have won, yes.
In our two best results of the tournament, the opening round win vs SA and the QF pumping of Ireland we started with Sam Cane and Ardie Savea. Hansen outsmarted himself in the SF. Enough said
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I'm on record as not being Cane's biggest fan. And also on record as being astounded at him being left out of the XV against England.
Would it have mattered?
Fuck knows.
But I think we all know that small moments impact tight test matches. SBW isn't everyone's cup of tea, but 2 quick offloads changed that final pretty quick in 2015.
Who is to say that Cane's defence wouldn't have shut down that opening drive by England in 2019, and who the hell knows what might have have happened if he had.
Maybe they don't get their confidence up. Maybe we clear to 40m, steal a line out, and end up in their red zone putting them under the pump.
Point is that every little thing matters when its all tallied up.
Also, I've had a few drinks, and I can't remember what the gist of my point was, though I'm sure it was very important.
