All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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So sincere questions for the Fern:
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Are there any players not in the current AB squad that you believe would make a difference? What do you think they would offer above the existing players in their position?
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Assuming the answer to 1 isn't an extensive list, do you believe the current set of players have the conditioning to play a more forward, attritional style of game?
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Assuming the ABs need to bulk up to meet the challenge of Ireland, SA and England, is the major work not in the hands of Nic Gill in terms of changing the physique of the ABs to suit that type of game? Or do you believe it is more a question of mentality that the ABs are lacking right now in terms of how they are approaching the challenge of owning the collisions (both forwards and backs)?
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Is there a foreign born coach that you would select to mould the ABs into a world beating outfit? If so, who? Of course, I know there are lots of v good NZ coaches available. I'm thinking of the angle of someone from outside the NZ bubble being able to make cold, hard decisions without any bias.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think it was well summarised above, we have an Australian forward back. Playing too many sevens, no ball runners and no physicality.
Teams like England, SA and now the Irish know they can just beat us up front and it doesn’t matter who is in the backs.
Missed ST on the bench, probably Ofa too, Akira should have started and we are screwed at lock as Brodie is not the player he was.
Would have been the perfect game to start Coles as well, for that oft used word mongrel.
When Coles comes on and the rugby intelligence increases you know that the starting XV was wrong.
For all the gnashing of teeth though I would put money on us still winning that with Smith and BB in the halves and ALB staying on.
We probably lost the two backs that could have assessed stuff and adjusted.
Sliding doors moment was the forward pass try. There was just no need to force the pass forward. Akira was clean through regardless.
Other area to consider is ABs conceded 15 points without reply at beginning of 2nd half. Boks did the same to them at beginning of second test in RC this year. Have teams spotted something in NZ at beginning of 2nd half to exploit?
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think it was well summarised above, we have an Australian forward back. Playing too many sevens, no ball runners and no physicality.
Teams like England, SA and now the Irish know they can just beat us up front and it doesn’t matter who is in the backs.
Missed ST on the bench, probably Ofa too, Akira should have started and we are screwed at lock as Brodie is not the player he was.
Would have been the perfect game to start Coles as well, for that oft used word mongrel.
When Coles comes on and the rugby intelligence increases you know that the starting XV was wrong.
For all the gnashing of teeth though I would put money on us still winning that with Smith and BB in the halves and ALB staying on.
We probably lost the two backs that could have assessed stuff and adjusted.
Sliding doors moment was the forward pass try. There was just no need to force the pass forward. Akira was clean through regardless.
Other area to consider is ABs conceded 15 points without reply at beginning of 2nd half. Boks did the same to them at beginning of second test in RC this year. Have teams spotted something in NZ at beginning of 2nd half to exploit?
I was also reflecting on that this morning. We used to be deadly in first five minutes of second.
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While NZ sides by and large play the same style of footy, I mean for years our front row was only reading from the Cron book of scrummaging.
But I think the Crusaders have largely tried to play thier own way (more often good than bad) and often get criticised for it, but they play to win...kiwi fans have been lead down the path that winning ugly ain't the best way to win.
Hopefully Schmidt with his NH experience will give the blues another dimension, given it is a team chock full of runners, if they can get thier pack humming they could be awesome.
Is Gats back this year, to focus on the Chiefs now? He doesn't become a shit coach, but he needs to be involved, hands on not by zoom...zoom meetings suck.
So right now things are pretty shit, but hopefully the clouds look to be parting slightly and a glimmer of blue sky creeping through for super rugby to be a bit more of a breeding ground...then these good players end up in black aaaanndd...
We used to own the final quarter, even when behind we more often came back, now our bench is more often than not a big step down, less cohesion, no impact, full disruption.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
While NZ sides by and large play the same style of footy, I mean for years our front row was only reading from the Cron book of scrummaging.
But I think the Crusaders have largely tried to play thier own way (more often good than bad) and often get criticised for it, but they play to win...kiwi fans have been lead down the path that winning ugly ain't the best way to win.
Hopefully Schmidt with his NH experience will give the blues another dimension, given it is a team chock full of runners, if they can get thier pack humming they could be awesome.
Is Gats back this year, to focus on the Chiefs now? He doesn't become a shit coach, but he needs to be involved, hands on not by zoom...zoom meetings suck.
So right now things are pretty shit, but hopefully the clouds look to be parting slightly and a glimmer of blue sky creeping through for super rugby to be a bit more of a breeding ground...then these good players end up in black aaaanndd...
We used to own the final quarter, even when behind we more often came back, now our bench is more often than not a big step down, less cohesion, no impact, full disruption.
In last ten, the Saders' do what is needed to win mentality would have helped. With Sam, Richie and Havili I might have hoped som ethat would have rubbed off on ABs. :crying_face:
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think it was well summarised above, we have an Australian forward back. Playing too many sevens, no ball runners and no physicality.
Teams like England, SA and now the Irish know they can just beat us up front and it doesn’t matter who is in the backs.
Missed ST on the bench, probably Ofa too, Akira should have started and we are screwed at lock as Brodie is not the player he was.
Would have been the perfect game to start Coles as well, for that oft used word mongrel.
When Coles comes on and the rugby intelligence increases you know that the starting XV was wrong.
For all the gnashing of teeth though I would put money on us still winning that with Smith and BB in the halves and ALB staying on.
We probably lost the two backs that could have assessed stuff and adjusted.
Sliding doors moment was the forward pass try. There was just no need to force the pass forward. Akira was clean through regardless.
Other area to consider is ABs conceded 15 points without reply at beginning of 2nd half. Boks did the same to them at beginning of second test in RC this year. Have teams spotted something in NZ at beginning of 2nd half to exploit?
I was also reflecting on that this morning. We used to be deadly in first five minutes of second.
@pakman said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think it was well summarised above, we have an Australian forward back. Playing too many sevens, no ball runners and no physicality.
Teams like England, SA and now the Irish know they can just beat us up front and it doesn’t matter who is in the backs.
Missed ST on the bench, probably Ofa too, Akira should have started and we are screwed at lock as Brodie is not the player he was.
Would have been the perfect game to start Coles as well, for that oft used word mongrel.
When Coles comes on and the rugby intelligence increases you know that the starting XV was wrong.
For all the gnashing of teeth though I would put money on us still winning that with Smith and BB in the halves and ALB staying on.
We probably lost the two backs that could have assessed stuff and adjusted.
Sliding doors moment was the forward pass try. There was just no need to force the pass forward. Akira was clean through regardless.
Other area to consider is ABs conceded 15 points without reply at beginning of 2nd half. Boks did the same to them at beginning of second test in RC this year. Have teams spotted something in NZ at beginning of 2nd half to exploit?
I was also reflecting on that this morning. We used to be deadly in first five minutes of second.
Is that not a sign of mental tiredness?
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Looks like it could be a cracker.
I'd go with
- Moody
- Taylor
- Ofa T
- Retallick
- S. Whitelock (c)
- A. Ioane
- D. Papail'i
- A. Savea
- B. Weber (if fit)
- B. Barrett
- R. Ioane
- D. Havili
- ALB
- W. Jordan
- J. Barrett
- D. Coles
- Karl T
- Laulala
- Vaa' i
- Blackadder
- TJP
- R. Mo'unga
- Tupaea
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Was there another angle of the Iaone try? It is water under the bridge now but I notice they used a waist view to make the decision instead of one from above .
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@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Was there another angle of the Iaone try? It is water under the bridge now but I notice they used a waist view to make the decision instead of one from above .
All in the hands supposedly
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@stodders I think the waist level view made it look worse than it really was but oh well.
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders I think the waist level view made it look worse than it really was but oh well.
Of course it did. But I think NTA has already touched on TMO and home broadcasters above and the issue of influence above.
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@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders I think the waist level view made it look worse than it really was but oh well.
Of course it did. But I think NTA has already touched on TMO and home broadcasters above and the issue of influence above.
@stodders Yeah I’m not too happy with the way the TMO is going these days. Maybe they should have some over head cam that follows the play. But basing a call Of that view does not make any sense at all and it does question the credibility of these guys.
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Was there another angle of the Iaone try? It is water under the bridge now but I notice they used a waist view to make the decision instead of one from above .
@broughie I thought the first Irish try warranted a further look, the passer was moving sideways so little forward momentum and ball clearly moved forward, 50-50 and one that is more often given.
Have no issues with it, but all we ask is consistency when looking at and replaying these things.
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@stodders Yeah I’m not too happy with the way the TMO is going these days. Maybe they should have some over head cam that follows the play. But basing a call Of that view does not make any sense at all and it does question the credibility of these guys.
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders Yeah I’m not too happy with the way the TMO is going these days. Maybe they should have some over head cam that follows the play. But basing a call Of that view does not make any sense at all and it does question the credibility of these guys.
TMO feed should be independent of the domestic broadcaster. It isn't like World Rugby don't have funds to do it. And big screens should be banned from showing replays until the ref decision has been made. I know ppl will say they want to be kept informed at the ground, but they don't do it for VAR in football. If we're looking for complete fairness, there has to be a balance between entertaining the fans and adjudicating fairly.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
Another bugbear of mine. Our bench players often have little impact when they come on compared to the past.
Because they are not as good
Did anyone think "fuck, we need really need to get Va'ai and Christie put there to inject some shit"?
Our talent pool is not there my guys. Our national program, and the player drain is fucking us
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
Another bugbear of mine. Our bench players often have little impact when they come on compared to the past.
Because they are not as good
Did anyone think "fuck, we need really need to get Va'ai and Christie put there to inject some shit"?
Our talent pool is not there my guys. Our national program, and the player drain is fucking us
I was thinking TJP's passing is killing our backline -- FCS give Christie a shot!!!
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@pakman said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think it was well summarised above, we have an Australian forward back. Playing too many sevens, no ball runners and no physicality.
Teams like England, SA and now the Irish know they can just beat us up front and it doesn’t matter who is in the backs.
Missed ST on the bench, probably Ofa too, Akira should have started and we are screwed at lock as Brodie is not the player he was.
Would have been the perfect game to start Coles as well, for that oft used word mongrel.
When Coles comes on and the rugby intelligence increases you know that the starting XV was wrong.
For all the gnashing of teeth though I would put money on us still winning that with Smith and BB in the halves and ALB staying on.
We probably lost the two backs that could have assessed stuff and adjusted.
Sliding doors moment was the forward pass try. There was just no need to force the pass forward. Akira was clean through regardless.
Other area to consider is ABs conceded 15 points without reply at beginning of 2nd half. Boks did the same to them at beginning of second test in RC this year. Have teams spotted something in NZ at beginning of 2nd half to exploit?
I was also reflecting on that this morning. We used to be deadly in first five minutes of second.
Is that not a sign of mental tiredness?
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@pakman said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think it was well summarised above, we have an Australian forward back. Playing too many sevens, no ball runners and no physicality.
Teams like England, SA and now the Irish know they can just beat us up front and it doesn’t matter who is in the backs.
Missed ST on the bench, probably Ofa too, Akira should have started and we are screwed at lock as Brodie is not the player he was.
Would have been the perfect game to start Coles as well, for that oft used word mongrel.
When Coles comes on and the rugby intelligence increases you know that the starting XV was wrong.
For all the gnashing of teeth though I would put money on us still winning that with Smith and BB in the halves and ALB staying on.
We probably lost the two backs that could have assessed stuff and adjusted.
Sliding doors moment was the forward pass try. There was just no need to force the pass forward. Akira was clean through regardless.
Other area to consider is ABs conceded 15 points without reply at beginning of 2nd half. Boks did the same to them at beginning of second test in RC this year. Have teams spotted something in NZ at beginning of 2nd half to exploit?
I was also reflecting on that this morning. We used to be deadly in first five minutes of second.
Is that not a sign of mental tiredness?
My gut tells me that's probably right.
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@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders Yeah I’m not too happy with the way the TMO is going these days. Maybe they should have some over head cam that follows the play. But basing a call Of that view does not make any sense at all and it does question the credibility of these guys.
TMO feed should be independent of the domestic broadcaster. It isn't like World Rugby don't have funds to do it. And big screens should be banned from showing replays until the ref decision has been made. I know ppl will say they want to be kept informed at the ground, but they don't do it for VAR in football. If we're looking for complete fairness, there has to be a balance between entertaining the fans and adjudicating fairly.
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders Yeah I’m not too happy with the way the TMO is going these days. Maybe they should have some over head cam that follows the play. But basing a call Of that view does not make any sense at all and it does question the credibility of these guys.
TMO feed should be independent of the domestic broadcaster. It isn't like World Rugby don't have funds to do it. And big screens should be banned from showing replays until the ref decision has been made. I know ppl will say they want to be kept informed at the ground, but they don't do it for VAR in football. If we're looking for complete fairness, there has to be a balance between entertaining the fans and adjudicating fairly.
If forward passes are so important (they are) get some overhead footage, or someone who understands geometry.
The 'hands move forward' is meaningless unless one adjusts for perspective.
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This for me, is one of our darkest days.
We were absolutely pummeled. Ireland should have won by 50.
We showed zero grit, zero game plan and tried to show boat our way through it.
And the best part? Seeing fucking Lowe, Gibson Park jumping out of their fucking skins.
I am so fucking angry right now.
@majorrage Well said that man, Xactly how I feel a day later. I'm still fucking raging about how godamn ineffective we were. Played like a bunch of individual primadonnas "Iv'e been away from family on tour for so long" - well boo fucking hoo.
You get one shot you motherfarkin assholes - AND YOU BLEW IT.
Every time Lowe got the ball in his hands he looked dangerous like he was going to cut us wide open - and that try? Well, a special, right out of the Chiefs playbook. Damn Gibson-Park looked way better than TJ too. Agreed on the coaching in Ireland, the methodology seems to be working.
Fister Macleod Mooar and all hangers on should be gone. End of. When I think we have two more fuckin years of this BS it is intolerable. -
@mrdenmore player and brain drain is a natural result of our success. Few would argue that we let anyone of these players go and that they would walk into the ABs. But I think all of us would agree we are not playing to our optimal best
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore player and brain drain is a natural result of our success. Few would argue that we let anyone of these players go and that they would walk into the ABs. But I think all of us would agree we are not playing to our optimal best
This is very true but it speaks to issues with our coaching and selection policies - the fact that guys who couldn’t “cut it “ in NZ can go overseas, improve their games and then out play their “better” opposite numbers in black.
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@majorrage Well said that man, Xactly how I feel a day later. I'm still fucking raging about how godamn ineffective we were. Played like a bunch of individual primadonnas "Iv'e been away from family on tour for so long" - well boo fucking hoo.
You get one shot you motherfarkin assholes - AND YOU BLEW IT.
Every time Lowe got the ball in his hands he looked dangerous like he was going to cut us wide open - and that try? Well, a special, right out of the Chiefs playbook. Damn Gibson-Park looked way better than TJ too. Agreed on the coaching in Ireland, the methodology seems to be working.
Fister Macleod Mooar and all hangers on should be gone. End of. When I think we have two more fuckin years of this BS it is intolerable. -
Can you guys organize a manure dump at the NZRFU headquarters front door. I know symbolic but with some reference to Foster at least a point would be made.
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Can you guys organize a manure dump at the NZRFU headquarters front door. I know symbolic but with some reference to Foster at least a point would be made.
Ideally with lots of empty KFC buckets
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Super rugby aotearoa hos hidden so much. We have these games that are flat out, everyone wants themselves about how they are "test match intensity" and we talk up thr talent we have, and the huge depth
And as soon as we play someone who plays a bit different we get smacked, and realise we build, and wank over, players that do not measure up to modern top level test rugby.
We have to pick old locks because there is no one else. And we are not building any either. And out domestic coaching isn't either. The entire system has lost its way.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Super rugby aotearoa hos hidden so much. We have these games that are flat out, everyone wants themselves about how they are "test match intensity" and we talk up thr talent we have, and the huge depth
And as soon as we play someone who plays a bit different we get smacked, and realise we build, and wank over, players that do not measure up to modern top level test rugby.
We have to pick old locks because there is no one else. And we are not building any either. And out domestic coaching isn't either. The entire system has lost its way.
We have too many touch rugby players from one to fifteen. As soon as we come up against a team that makes their tackles - hard tackles in particular - we have zero interest across the board. We no longer play a contact sport I’m afraid
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Just reading back through the thread. Why do the stats houses get Akira's stats wrong? That's twice now they've published stats saying he made no tackles when clearly any viewer with half a functioning eye can tell them otherwise. On his brother, he seems to be copping it in the thread but I thought he was one of our better performed backs, although guilty of a couple of dud passes which was pretty much par amongst our backs.
On thinking about the NH rush defence I think the pack has to play up the middle, but crucially the forwards need to be tight as fuck so that there are always numbers as NH refs seem to favour the defender regardless of whether they're on their feet/in through the gate etc.
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim agreed, but point is he is a 7, not an 8.
Tbf I think cane, Dalton and Blackadder are all 6.5s, need to be looking at specialists, not all rounders.
NZ rugby looooves all rounders because we are all in on "get your best 15 players on the park"
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You have to ask - will NZ be able to ignore the overseas playing talent that they could select for much longer?
What overseas playing talent do you think would make the ABs?
@nepia said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Just reading back through the thread. Why do the stats houses get Akira's stats wrong? That's twice now they've published stats saying he made no tackles when clearly any viewer with half a functioning eye can tell them otherwise. On his brother, he seems to be copping it in the thread but I thought he was one of our better performed backs, although guilty of a couple of dud passes which was pretty much par amongst our backs.
On thinking about the NH rush defence I think the pack has to play up the middle, but crucially the forwards need to be tight as fuck so that there are always numbers as NH refs seem to favour the defender regardless of whether they're on their feet/in through the gate etc.
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim agreed, but point is he is a 7, not an 8.
Tbf I think cane, Dalton and Blackadder are all 6.5s, need to be looking at specialists, not all rounders.
NZ rugby looooves all rounders because we are all in on "get your best 15 players on the park"
.
You have to ask - will NZ be able to ignore the overseas playing talent that they could select for much longer?
What overseas playing talent do you think would make the ABs?
I can think of a halfback, second five and winger who would all do better than the ones who played for us this weekend
