All Blacks 2022
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@pakman said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/128081388/the-alarming-trend-stalling-new-zealand-rugby
O’Keeffe, who handled Six Nations matches and games on the British & Irish Lions tour of South Africa, said it was “no surprise” the All Blacks had been beaten as their opponents generated quicker ball from the breakdowns.
Yet another indicator of the irrelevance of Super Rugby for test rugby.
It's ridiculous that our Super Rugby teams & ABs don't seem to want to do the bloody basics of getting good numbers to their ball carriers to clean out opposition players at the breakdown with urgency/aggression... so hardly surprising we get so much slow ball, if that shite doesn't change we will keep on struggling.
I think there is many a coach that will dispel your theory on that in the modern game. They will have plenty of analysis around speed of ball vs attacking numbers elsewhere ie not much use having fast ball to then have your outsides outnumbered and potentially isolated without enough support.
The key is not for numbers but for efficiency.@ARHS I take your point but my call isn't for harder hits it is for more dynamic intent. There's a difference in my mind. Players like Ardie and Samisoni don't die easily with the ball. Players like Moody and Bridge do.
Players like Vai'i take the ball forward by running onto it at angles, players like the aging version of Whitelock take it statically and make a metre.
Some harsh and generalised examples on players there but they are meant to be illustrative not absolute.
It's difficult to find those players though. The likes of Blackadder bring plenty of dynamics but it has to be effective as well. Then players like Akira bring amazing dynamics but tend to switch it on and off.
It's easy to say what would work, Harder to find/develop the resources.It's not about attacking numbers, it's about having good numbers to clean well so you can protect your ball & get fast recycled stuff, also the other side would have less time to organized their defence, from fast recycled ball the forwards need to go through a lot of phases to make the opposition tackle a lot, then fed your backs at the right time when they tire a bit, Ireland & France executed these things very well, we were very poor at it, so got beaten badly by both of them.
When defences have plenty of time & are really smothering you it's a waste of time players running off each other on different angles etc as they're playing well behind the advantage line, all the defence have to do then is move up in a straight line & you're going nowhere with ball in-hand, only option from there is a smart kicking game.One thing you notice watching Ireland is that there is ALWAYS support a metre or two from carrier just waiting to slam in and clean.
ABs last year seemed to get away from their cleaners. Almost as if there was no plan?
Exactly... whereas we tend to see too many of our forwards fanning out wide on our own ball, instead they should be getting more numbers to clean & protect our possession, it's unbelievably poor by our blokes.
Funny because France do the opposite. Low numbers attending the breakdown.
As @pakman says, it is about having a supporting runner (or two) nearby for a quick clean and recycle. Nothing to do with more numbers.This is my idea of efficient support/cleaning:
@pakman and yet that was done without huge bashers. It was a connected and skilled team.
It is a bit of an unfair example really as it was peak performance but yes, it is a good example of not just 'getting more numbers' to the breakdown which meant that successive breakdowns had the support they needed. -
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2022:
I haven't seen our game progress at all since Foster took over as head coach.
You can't have been looking very carefully since our game hasn't progressed since 2016 - 3 years before Foster took over.
Stale thinking and a reliance on established norms saw Foster appointed, Ireland will already understand the gameplan, (or lack thereof),
Ireland have worked out a gameplan that doesn't exist? Impressive by Farrell.
I wish them all the luck, it will consign Foster to the bin more quickly and hopefully welcome a Razor/Rangi combo a lot sooner.
Ah, you want the AB's to lose and will happily cheer the opposition? Sez it all really...
I think Victor, kiwi_expat is exactly the type of person that Kieran Crowley was talking about when he was spoke of arrogant kiwi supporters. One who believes that if someone beats the ABs it is because ABs are poor, not because teams like France and Ireland have very very good teams. And to be honest his name speaks of someone who probably is not an AB supporter, merely someone who lives in another country , and maybe even the type who could even post in different rugby sites under different names??:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes: :beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:
@dan54 All Blacks have been poor, especially since 2020. Ireland are a better team. There is no negativity in that statement, it is what it is. Wouldn't an arrogant NZ supporter believe we will win in June? I just can't believe the articles in NZ surprised that Six Nations is faster and more physical than Super rugby etc, etc. NZ supporters do kind of live in a bubble if they think the ABs are still a world force. They potentially can be of course but.....some deep thinking and changes are needed.
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i think the teams that have improved have done so because they have a clear game plan and normally one based on the type of players, simple. I feel our game plan is either unclear....or its not right for the type of players we pick..or its right for the backs but not the forward or visa versa
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2022:
I haven't seen our game progress at all since Foster took over as head coach.
You can't have been looking very carefully since our game hasn't progressed since 2016 - 3 years before Foster took over.
Stale thinking and a reliance on established norms saw Foster appointed, Ireland will already understand the gameplan, (or lack thereof),
Ireland have worked out a gameplan that doesn't exist? Impressive by Farrell.
I wish them all the luck, it will consign Foster to the bin more quickly and hopefully welcome a Razor/Rangi combo a lot sooner.
Ah, you want the AB's to lose and will happily cheer the opposition? Sez it all really...
I think Victor, kiwi_expat is exactly the type of person that Kieran Crowley was talking about when he was spoke of arrogant kiwi supporters. One who believes that if someone beats the ABs it is because ABs are poor, not because teams like France and Ireland have very very good teams. And to be honest his name speaks of someone who probably is not an AB supporter, merely someone who lives in another country , and maybe even the type who could even post in different rugby sites under different names??:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes: :beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
I think Victor, kiwi_expat is exactly the type of person that Kieran Crowley was talking about when he was spoke of arrogant kiwi supporters. One who believes that if someone beats the ABs it is because ABs are poor, not because teams like France and Ireland have very very good teams.
Those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. To me the ABs were poor. The game plan was easily read and nullified by the opposition for the majority of the game. Skills execution under pressure were poor, as was the decision making.
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Don't we have a Fozzie thread somewhere?
Can we get this one back to discussing the 2022 ABs?After all the players are the ones that form the backbone here. Who do we think will no longer make the cut? Who will be held on to while someone is is given experience? Who will def be there?
The AB website lists 42! players as current squad (because of the messy end of the year). 26 forwards and 16 backs.
Here's the forwards as a starter.
Props
At Risk
Lomax
Ta'avao
de Groot
Bower
Moody
Tu'inukuafe
Laulala
TuungafasiI don't see any of these players as being must haves. This area of selection is(and should be) wide open. There are a few guys playing very well at the moment that could be the future.
Hooker
At Risk
AumuaWill be kept on
Taylor
ColesDefinite
Tuakei'ahoThe same four will probably stay.
Locks
Will be kept on
Whitelock
Retallick
S Barrett
Vai'i
LordGone
TuipulotuI don't see any changes here. I think they have invested in some new boys and will stick with them. Maybe add one more in to the squad if there is room through injury during the year.
Loose Forwards
At Risk
Blackadder
Frizell
JacobsenWill be kept on
Ioane
SotutuDefinite
Cane
Savea
PapaliiThree opensiders are the only must haves here. You could actually make a decent back three out of them.
The search for a 6 that compliments Ardie at 8 continues. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
The search for a 6 that compliments Ardie at 8 continues.
Christ. Surely Fozzie can coach Akira to say something nice about how tall Ardie is looking?!!
@chris-b said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
The search for a 6 that compliments Ardie at 8 continues.
Christ. Surely Fozzie can coach Akira to say something nice about how tall Ardie is looking?!!
Typical south islander, put all the blame on Akira instead of the Tongan thug from your invitational XV.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
The search for a 6 that compliments Ardie at 8 continues.
Christ. Surely Fozzie can coach Akira to say something nice about how tall Ardie is looking?!!
Typical south islander, put all the blame on Akira instead of the Tongan thug from your invitational XV.
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@nepia I'm blaming Fozzie!
Notable that Toddy's nicely-brought-up and polite son, got the inside running late in the season.
"Woah, shiny boots, Ardie!"
- Ethan Blackadder.
@chris-b said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia I'm blaming Fozzie!
Notable that Toddy's nicely-brought-up and polite son, got the inside running late in the season.
"Woah, shiny boots, Ardie!"
- Ethan Blackadder.
Did he get injured against Ireland as he didn't play against the best team of the tour? (Which in hindsight was a good game to miss).
Nice deflection away from your imported Ta$man thug though.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia I'm blaming Fozzie!
Notable that Toddy's nicely-brought-up and polite son, got the inside running late in the season.
"Woah, shiny boots, Ardie!"
- Ethan Blackadder.
Did he get injured against Ireland as he didn't play against the best team of the tour? (Which in hindsight was a good game to miss).
Nice deflection away from your imported Ta$man thug though.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia He was a highlander when doing his thuggy stuff.
He's a Ta$man-ian 365 days per year. Learnt his thuggery in Nelson, unleashed it on the poor unsuspecting good folks in Dunedin.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia He was a highlander when doing his thuggy stuff.
He's a Ta$man-ian 365 days per year. Learnt his thuggery in Nelson, unleashed it on the poor unsuspecting good folks in Dunedin.
@nepia i've always liked you
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@chris-b said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia He was a highlander when doing his thuggy stuff.
He's a Ta$man-ian 365 days per year. Learnt his thuggery in Nelson, unleashed it on the poor unsuspecting good folks in Dunedin.
@nepia He's an import and hasn't spent enough time within our borders for the good influence to soak right through.
You would have thought Mitch Hunt's goodness would have radiated far enough to keep Shannon under control, but apparently not.
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@nepia He's an import and hasn't spent enough time within our borders for the good influence to soak right through.
You would have thought Mitch Hunt's goodness would have radiated far enough to keep Shannon under control, but apparently not.
@chris-b said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia He's an import and hasn't spent enough time within our borders for the good influence to soak right through.
You would have thought Mitch Hunt's goodness would have radiated far enough to keep Shannon under control, but apparently not.
Jesus, he's been in Ta$man for 7 years, damn I feel sorry for you primary school teachers if 7 years isn't enough to teach someone right from wrong.
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@nepia He's an import and hasn't spent enough time within our borders for the good influence to soak right through.
You would have thought Mitch Hunt's goodness would have radiated far enough to keep Shannon under control, but apparently not.
@chris-b said in All Blacks 2022:
He's an import
nooooo
seriously?
an import? In the South Central Vikings?
I for one am shocked. Shocked i tell you
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Here's the backs.
Halfback
At Risk
TJPWill be kept on
Christie
WeberDefinites
SmithAll our eggs are in the speed basket here.
First-fives
Gone
DMacDefinites
B Barrett
MoungaWould like to see one of the bubbling under 10s in Super put their hand up and I think we need a third option for touring. There is an open spot.
Midfield
At Risk
Ennor
Definite
ALB
R IoaneWill be kept on
Tupaea
HaviliHavili will probably stay around as utility but room for others to show their wares. (RTS, post injury Goodhue). We still aren't fixed in this area but I don't buy into the obsession that we need to settle on two and play them all the time.
Three-quarters
At Risk
BridgeWill be kept on
ReeceDefinite
Jordan
J BarrettWhen you drop Reiko into the midfield box we are surprisingly light on options here. Wingers can sometimes appear as a flash iin the pan at the right time and there are a few around that could hit form to do just that. If we want Jordie to use his attacking instincts like Bender used to then we need Jordan to play as a second fullback. Strike winger should be whoever is on a hot streak and can finish attacks in traffic. That removes Bridge from the equation IMO.
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Here's the backs.
Halfback
At Risk
TJPWill be kept on
Christie
WeberDefinites
SmithAll our eggs are in the speed basket here.
First-fives
Gone
DMacDefinites
B Barrett
MoungaWould like to see one of the bubbling under 10s in Super put their hand up and I think we need a third option for touring. There is an open spot.
Midfield
At Risk
Ennor
Definite
ALB
R IoaneWill be kept on
Tupaea
HaviliHavili will probably stay around as utility but room for others to show their wares. (RTS, post injury Goodhue). We still aren't fixed in this area but I don't buy into the obsession that we need to settle on two and play them all the time.
Three-quarters
At Risk
BridgeWill be kept on
ReeceDefinite
Jordan
J BarrettWhen you drop Reiko into the midfield box we are surprisingly light on options here. Wingers can sometimes appear as a flash iin the pan at the right time and there are a few around that could hit form to do just that. If we want Jordie to use his attacking instincts like Bender used to then we need Jordan to play as a second fullback. Strike winger should be whoever is on a hot streak and can finish attacks in traffic. That removes Bridge from the equation IMO.
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
Would like to see one of the bubbling under 10s in Super put their hand up and I think we need a third option for touring. There is an open spot.
I'd like Perofeta to get that third 10 position, it looks like he's matured a lot and it's paying dividends for the Blues.
There is a lot to like about Ruben Love aswell but I don't think he will be in the picture until after the World Cup. He's still got plenty of growing to do.
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Here's the backs.
Halfback
At Risk
TJPWill be kept on
Christie
WeberDefinites
SmithAll our eggs are in the speed basket here.
First-fives
Gone
DMacDefinites
B Barrett
MoungaWould like to see one of the bubbling under 10s in Super put their hand up and I think we need a third option for touring. There is an open spot.
Midfield
At Risk
Ennor
Definite
ALB
R IoaneWill be kept on
Tupaea
HaviliHavili will probably stay around as utility but room for others to show their wares. (RTS, post injury Goodhue). We still aren't fixed in this area but I don't buy into the obsession that we need to settle on two and play them all the time.
Three-quarters
At Risk
BridgeWill be kept on
ReeceDefinite
Jordan
J BarrettWhen you drop Reiko into the midfield box we are surprisingly light on options here. Wingers can sometimes appear as a flash iin the pan at the right time and there are a few around that could hit form to do just that. If we want Jordie to use his attacking instincts like Bender used to then we need Jordan to play as a second fullback. Strike winger should be whoever is on a hot streak and can finish attacks in traffic. That removes Bridge from the equation IMO.
@crucial Bit early to call, but i don't see ho Tupaea's woeful defence can keep him in the discussion and Havili isn't exactly setting the world on fire to assuage concerns about his Test form.
Of all positions, the midfield is the most contentious an open. Only ALB is guaranteed, RIoane by virtue of being a guaranteed winger if not centre.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
Would like to see one of the bubbling under 10s in Super put their hand up and I think we need a third option for touring. There is an open spot.
I'd like Perofeta to get that third 10 position, it looks like he's matured a lot and it's paying dividends for the Blues.
There is a lot to like about Ruben Love aswell but I don't think he will be in the picture until after the World Cup. He's still got plenty of growing to do.
@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
Would like to see one of the bubbling under 10s in Super put their hand up and I think we need a third option for touring. There is an open spot.
I'd like Perofeta to get that third 10 position, he's looked bloody good this year and has seemed to have matured.
I'd like that too if he can see more time in the 10 jersey once BB comes back.
I don't see Gatland or Ioane as options in black at the moment
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@canes4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
Would like to see one of the bubbling under 10s in Super put their hand up and I think we need a third option for touring. There is an open spot.
I'd like Perofeta to get that third 10 position, he's looked bloody good this year and has seemed to have matured.
I'd like that too if he can see more time in the 10 jersey once BB comes back.
I don't see Gatland or Ioane as options in black at the moment
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The point of listing players like that is to see how difficult it actually is to put together a XV at this stage.
I would only ink in maybe 8 players with question marks around some.
Absolute definite would be few, maybe Cane, Smith, ALB, Jordie, Jordan.
