Foster, Robertson etc
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@mariner4life Under Hansen - but, no idea exactly when and i don't have time for "research" today.
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life Under Hansen - but, no idea exactly when and i don't have time for "research" today.
Didn't he come on as replacement for Smith? I know Smith talked him up quite a bit. I don't know that our defence systems are that bad, I think the tests we lose the tendency has come after opposition have won a shit load of front foot ball. There is a huge difference between defending a team with more ball than youself tan doing it when said team has front foot ball.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
well, here's the numbers
looks like 63 tests
Average score conceded 17
allowed 25+ points 11 timesFor comparison, the 2011-2015 group played 81 times, average score conceded 15, allowed 25+ points 6 times.
what is a solid point is 6 of those 25+ scores against have come in the last 24 tests. And we lost 5 of them.
not good when you see it laid out like that
my simple front rowers mind does wonder sometimes, the idea of a super fluid and free flowing and unstructured attack doesn't seem to sit naturally with a solid structured defence...i mean if anyone can be anywhere on attack then its hard to suddenly get back into structure if the ball is turned over
I imagine that is where the system changes to being about having somebody/anybody covering certain spots rather than expecting a certain player/position to be in a certain place.
This is why multiple phase attacks work well as you keep recycling (and hopefully going forward) changing the point of attack until you spot a mismatch such as two props covering 10 metres of width. Our attack currently is more concerned about not getting shut down by rush defence and finding a way to get that roll on whereas maybe we need to take a more basic approach with forwards not having to move far to secure a phase.@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
well, here's the numbers
looks like 63 tests
Average score conceded 17
allowed 25+ points 11 timesFor comparison, the 2011-2015 group played 81 times, average score conceded 15, allowed 25+ points 6 times.
what is a solid point is 6 of those 25+ scores against have come in the last 24 tests. And we lost 5 of them.
not good when you see it laid out like that
my simple front rowers mind does wonder sometimes, the idea of a super fluid and free flowing and unstructured attack doesn't seem to sit naturally with a solid structured defence...i mean if anyone can be anywhere on attack then its hard to suddenly get back into structure if the ball is turned over
I imagine that is where the system changes to being about having somebody/anybody covering certain spots rather than expecting a certain player/position to be in a certain place.
This is why multiple phase attacks work well as you keep recycling (and hopefully going forward) changing the point of attack until you spot a mismatch such as two props covering 10 metres of width. Our attack currently is more concerned about not getting shut down by rush defence and finding a way to get that roll on whereas maybe we need to take a more basic approach with forwards not having to move far to secure a phase.I think I would like to see our forwards attack closer to scrum/breakdown, first thing I really believe is we have to make it over advantage line, I think we can read too much into how many metres a forward carries in a game, if one carries 6 times for 5-10 metres gained and given a target for following forwards is I believe worth gold, as long as supporting players are close to create FAST ball! I find rugby quite simple in that kind of thing, advantage line is everything!
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
well, here's the numbers
looks like 63 tests
Average score conceded 17
allowed 25+ points 11 timesFor comparison, the 2011-2015 group played 81 times, average score conceded 15, allowed 25+ points 6 times.
what is a solid point is 6 of those 25+ scores against have come in the last 24 tests. And we lost 5 of them.
not good when you see it laid out like that
my simple front rowers mind does wonder sometimes, the idea of a super fluid and free flowing and unstructured attack doesn't seem to sit naturally with a solid structured defence...i mean if anyone can be anywhere on attack then its hard to suddenly get back into structure if the ball is turned over
I imagine that is where the system changes to being about having somebody/anybody covering certain spots rather than expecting a certain player/position to be in a certain place.
This is why multiple phase attacks work well as you keep recycling (and hopefully going forward) changing the point of attack until you spot a mismatch such as two props covering 10 metres of width. Our attack currently is more concerned about not getting shut down by rush defence and finding a way to get that roll on whereas maybe we need to take a more basic approach with forwards not having to move far to secure a phase.I think I would like to see our forwards attack closer to scrum/breakdown, first thing I really believe is we have to make it over advantage line, I think we can read too much into how many metres a forward carries in a game, if one carries 6 times for 5-10 metres gained and given a target for following forwards is I believe worth gold, as long as supporting players are close to create FAST ball! I find rugby quite simple in that kind of thing, advantage line is everything!
@Dan54 i'd love to see more variety, close-close-close-wide-wide
attack close to try and draw in some of their defenders...currently we fire it 10m out to a pod...that has 3 tacklers waiting for it because EVERYONE knows that thats what we're going to do
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean first loss to Ireland was 2016 so think the rot had already started
That wasn't a defence issue. That was an arrogance issue.
@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean first loss to Ireland was 2016 so think the rot had already started
That wasn't a defence issue. That was an arrogance issue.
Why?
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@Winger said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
plumtree was rated very highly.
And with the benefit of hindsight we should perhaps start to question those who spruiked his abilities.
@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Winger said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
plumtree was rated very highly.
And with the benefit of hindsight we should perhaps start to question those who spruiked his abilities.
Maybe. But the canes went great guns with plumtree as an assistant. Maybe he just didn't click with this group of coaches
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@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean first loss to Ireland was 2016 so think the rot had already started
That wasn't a defence issue. That was an arrogance issue.
Why?
@Stargazer said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean first loss to Ireland was 2016 so think the rot had already started
That wasn't a defence issue. That was an arrogance issue.
Why?
A lock pairing of Kaino and Tuipulotu doesn't suggest to me they were taking it seriously. Neither did the amount of social media work in the lead up. Very different a fortnight later.
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@Stargazer said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean first loss to Ireland was 2016 so think the rot had already started
That wasn't a defence issue. That was an arrogance issue.
Why?
A lock pairing of Kaino and Tuipulotu doesn't suggest to me they were taking it seriously. Neither did the amount of social media work in the lead up. Very different a fortnight later.
@antipodean You seem to have forgotten why Kaino was paired with Tuipulotu. It had absolutely nothing to do with taking it lightly. Sam Whitelock was out with a high ankle sprain, Brodie Retallick with concussion and Luke Romano had gone home because of a family bereavement. The only remaining lock was Scott Barrett, who was named on the bench for his test debut.
I agree that the lead-up to the test seemed a bit casual, but that's more an impression from social media posts, than actually knowing what went on.
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@antipodean You seem to have forgotten why Kaino was paired with Tuipulotu. It had absolutely nothing to do with taking it lightly. Sam Whitelock was out with a high ankle sprain, Brodie Retallick with concussion and Luke Romano had gone home because of a family bereavement. The only remaining lock was Scott Barrett, who was named on the bench for his test debut.
I agree that the lead-up to the test seemed a bit casual, but that's more an impression from social media posts, than actually knowing what went on.
@Stargazer said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean You seem to have forgotten why Kaino was paired with Tuipulotu. It had absolutely nothing to do with taking it lightly. Sam Whitelock was out with a high ankle sprain, Brodie Retallick with concussion and Luke Romano had gone home because of a family bereavement. The only remaining lock was Scott Barrett, who was named on the bench for his test debut.
I agree that the lead-up to the test seemed a bit casual, but that's more an impression from social media posts, than actually knowing what went on.
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@Dan54 i'd love to see more variety, close-close-close-wide-wide
attack close to try and draw in some of their defenders...currently we fire it 10m out to a pod...that has 3 tacklers waiting for it because EVERYONE knows that thats what we're going to do
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Dan54 i'd love to see more variety, close-close-close-wide-wide
attack close to try and draw in some of their defenders...currently we fire it 10m out to a pod...that has 3 tacklers waiting for it because EVERYONE knows that thats what we're going to do
Amen Kiwi, I have said before last test against Irish most of AB warm up I watched, they were going through 3 lots of pods and all 3 halfbacks were passing to player 2 or 3 wide, not once to a close runner.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Dan54 i'd love to see more variety, close-close-close-wide-wide
attack close to try and draw in some of their defenders...currently we fire it 10m out to a pod...that has 3 tacklers waiting for it because EVERYONE knows that thats what we're going to do
Amen Kiwi, I have said before last test against Irish most of AB warm up I watched, they were going through 3 lots of pods and all 3 halfbacks were passing to player 2 or 3 wide, not once to a close runner.
@Dan54 not to mention the 2 right, then back left too...which is always good running back into the traffic form the last breakdown.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
"Robertson told the interview panel that his assistants would be All Blacks defence coach Scott McLeod, who had worked under Sir Steve Hansen since late 2017 and is now in Foster's group, Blues head coach Leon MacDonald, Crusaders forwards coach Jason Ryan and Hurricanes assistant (now head coach) Jason Holland."
Tks. Interesting that McLeod was first choice for D in both camps, then.
Interesting in the same way that cancer is interesting. The All Blacks defence must look great in a presentation of the theory. The implemented reality is somewhat different. At some point you have to stop wondering if it's just the players who can't make tackles as opposed to the system that is so easily exploited by the opposition.
@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Interesting in the same way that cancer is interesting.
If Robertson wanted him, he must have rated him - which makes you wonder if the step up to Test level is a bit too much.
you have to stop wondering if it's just the players who can't make tackles as opposed to the system
There's a system?. To be fair, the D in the 22 is pretty good - but then they've had plenty of on-field opportunities to get that right I guess....
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@antipodean said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Interesting in the same way that cancer is interesting.
If Robertson wanted him, he must have rated him - which makes you wonder if the step up to Test level is a bit too much.
you have to stop wondering if it's just the players who can't make tackles as opposed to the system
There's a system?. To be fair, the D in the 22 is pretty good - but then they've had plenty of on-field opportunities to get that right I guess....
@Victor-Meldrew said in [Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes]
To be fair, the D in the 22 is pretty good - but then they've had plenty of on-field opportunities to get that right I guess....
I'd rather they stop teams before they get to the red zone....
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@Victor-Meldrew said in [Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes]
To be fair, the D in the 22 is pretty good - but then they've had plenty of on-field opportunities to get that right I guess....
I'd rather they stop teams before they get to the red zone....
@canefan yep, when on the line in a shallower set up we seem fine, were patches of excellent goal line defence, however, it was the ease with which they got there in the first place is of concern.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in [Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes]
To be fair, the D in the 22 is pretty good - but then they've had plenty of on-field opportunities to get that right I guess....
I'd rather they stop teams before they get to the red zone....
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in [Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes]
To be fair, the D in the 22 is pretty good - but then they've had plenty of on-field opportunities to get that right I guess....
I'd rather they stop teams before they get to the red zone....
And also actually try to win the ball back occasionally, so it occasionally doesn't reach the
redyellowcard zone. -
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in [Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes]
To be fair, the D in the 22 is pretty good - but then they've had plenty of on-field opportunities to get that right I guess....
I'd rather they stop teams before they get to the red zone....
And also actually try to win the ball back occasionally, so it occasionally doesn't reach the
redyellowcard zone.@Rapido said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in [Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes]
To be fair, the D in the 22 is pretty good - but then they've had plenty of on-field opportunities to get that right I guess....
I'd rather they stop teams before they get to the red zone....
And also actually try to win the ball back occasionally, so it occasionally doesn't reach the
redyellowcard zone.Turnovers? Now there's an idea
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@antipodean first loss to Ireland was 2016 so think the rot had already started
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean first loss to Ireland was 2016 so think the rot had already started
Fucking hell, almost 8 years ago! It still feels like only a couple. That wound just won't heal...
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@antipodean first loss to Ireland was 2016 so think the rot had already started
Fucking hell, almost 8 years ago! It still feels like only a couple. That wound just won't heal...
