Foster, Robertson etc
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While this analogy is useful, you have to also consider other possibilities.
What if our troops are OK, but the general put in charge has been placed there because he has good connections, and his generalship is the actual problem?
The Romans didn't get wiped out at Carrhae because they had poor culture. Instead they had an idiot at the helm (Crassus) and inappropriate methods.
Another general, some different tactics and the Romans were good to go.
@Chester-Draws said in Foster:
While this analogy is useful, you have to also consider other possibilities.
What if our troops are OK, but the general put in charge has been placed there because he has good connections, and his generalship is the actual problem?
The Romans didn't get wiped out at Carrhae because they had poor culture. Instead they had an idiot at the helm (Crassus) and inappropriate methods.
Another general, some different tactics and the Romans were good to go.
I think that is a bit simplistic. You have to ask, if it was all down to one general (Philip), why the French didn't regain their military supremacy when he departed the scene.
Google tells me Carrhea precipitated a civil war in Rome (a big cultural upheaval) and it took them 16-ish years to eventually win a major battle against the Parthians so a few more changes other than tactics and leaders.
Same with Foster. There's a risk thinking he is the root cause of the problems when what needs to be fixed is maybe much deeper
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
Yep. I was thinking more of why that was happening behind teh scnenes to let that happen.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
100%. Something seems seriously wrong and a new Head Coach may help identify the issues either by elimination or a fresh set of eyes.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
Yep. I was thinking more of why that was happening behind teh scnenes to let that happen.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
100%. Something seems seriously wrong and a new Head Coach may help identify the issues either by elimination or a fresh set of eyes.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
Yep. I was thinking more of why that was happening behind teh scnenes to let that happen.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
100%. Something seems seriously wrong and a new Head Coach may help identify the issues either by elimination or a fresh set of eyes.
A head coach from outside the current setup
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
Another analogy might be the Swiss mercenaries. Absolutely fùcking ruthless and the benchmark for an elite force back in the day. Then firearms and artillery come along and despite them bravely doing everything that made them so great they were simply overwhelmed by the world moving forward. They at least got the hint. How long until we do? I'd hate to think it would take an absolute bloody massacre, but I'm afraid it might.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster:
Then firearms and artillery come along and despite them bravely doing everything that made them so great they were simply overwhelmed by the world moving forward.
Their military culture stopped them innovating perhaps? A parallel with NZ Rugby or just the AB's?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
Yep. I was thinking more of why that was happening behind teh scnenes to let that happen.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
100%. Something seems seriously wrong and a new Head Coach may help identify the issues either by elimination or a fresh set of eyes.
A head coach from outside the current setup
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
Yep. I was thinking more of why that was happening behind teh scnenes to let that happen.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
100%. Something seems seriously wrong and a new Head Coach may help identify the issues either by elimination or a fresh set of eyes.
A head coach from outside the current setup
Or someone from outside rugby. Didn't NZ Cricket do something similar with John Graham?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
Yep. I was thinking more of why that was happening behind teh scnenes to let that happen.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
100%. Something seems seriously wrong and a new Head Coach may help identify the issues either by elimination or a fresh set of eyes.
A head coach from outside the current setup
Or someone from outside rugby. Didn't NZ Cricket do something similar with John Graham?
@Victor-Meldrew I think most people from outside the current set up can see alot of what is wrong, and has been for several years, but have done nothing to try to rectify it.
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@Victor-Meldrew I think most people from outside the current set up can see alot of what is wrong, and has been for several years, but have done nothing to try to rectify it.
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I think most people from outside the current set up can see alot of what is wrong,
Are they seeing the symptoms or the root causes? Often what seems an obvious problem cause is actually something way different.
and has been for several years, but have done nothing to try to rectify it.
Reminds of something I read recently: "The best time to plant a tree was ten years ago. The second-best time is now"
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I think most people from outside the current set up can see alot of what is wrong,
Are they seeing the symptoms or the root causes? Often what seems an obvious problem cause is actually something way different.
and has been for several years, but have done nothing to try to rectify it.
Reminds of something I read recently: "The best time to plant a tree was ten years ago. The second-best time is now"
@Victor-Meldrew what we are seeing now is the symptom of years of neglect.
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If Foster is replaced - will the new coach(es) get to make new selections/droppings of the current squad for this tournament? Or are they stuck with what Foster and co. selected?
If Foster is replaced - will the new coach(es) get to make new selections/droppings of the current squad for this tournament? Or are they stuck with what Foster and co. selected?
I imagine that'd be a shit show player contract wise to try and drop existing members and select new players.
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If Foster is replaced - will the new coach(es) get to make new selections/droppings of the current squad for this tournament? Or are they stuck with what Foster and co. selected?
@Frank Zero problem.
The reality is that Foster's got 95% of the best players in NZ in his squad - the problem is to get them playing like world beaters. (E.g. Cullen Grace is a complete red herring, given that he'd have to supplant Hoskins Sotutu to actually get on the field).
Watching a bit of NPC today, seems like we're still predominantly stuck in the midfield bomb set, while much of the rest of the world has progressed ahead with attacking lines.
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@Frank Zero problem.
The reality is that Foster's got 95% of the best players in NZ in his squad - the problem is to get them playing like world beaters. (E.g. Cullen Grace is a complete red herring, given that he'd have to supplant Hoskins Sotutu to actually get on the field).
Watching a bit of NPC today, seems like we're still predominantly stuck in the midfield bomb set, while much of the rest of the world has progressed ahead with attacking lines.
@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Frank Zero problem.
The reality is that Foster's got 95% of the best players in NZ in his squad - the problem is to get them playing like world beaters.
That assumes they are world-beaters simply awaiting a metamorphosis. Not 100% sold on that argument.
Watching a bit of NPC today, seems like we're still predominantly stuck in the midfield bomb set, while much of the rest of the world has progressed ahead with attacking lines.
Interesting comment. Makes you wonder how deep our current midfield problems are. Or is an explanation?
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@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Frank Zero problem.
The reality is that Foster's got 95% of the best players in NZ in his squad - the problem is to get them playing like world beaters.
That assumes they are world-beaters simply awaiting a metamorphosis. Not 100% sold on that argument.
Watching a bit of NPC today, seems like we're still predominantly stuck in the midfield bomb set, while much of the rest of the world has progressed ahead with attacking lines.
Interesting comment. Makes you wonder how deep our current midfield problems are. Or is an explanation?
@Victor-Meldrew For certain, they may not be.
But, under Foster they are clearly a long way short of the mark. I've got zero doubt now that a coaching change has to happen and with a better coach we will do better.
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@Victor-Meldrew For certain, they may not be.
But, under Foster they are clearly a long way short of the mark. I've got zero doubt now that a coaching change has to happen and with a better coach we will do better.
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@Victor-Meldrew For certain, they may not be.
But, under Foster they are clearly a long way short of the mark. I've got zero doubt now that a coaching change has to happen and with a better coach we will do better.
@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew For certain, they may not be.
But, under Foster they are clearly a long way short of the mark. I've got zero doubt now that a coaching change has to happen and with a better coach we will do better.
A change will almost always bring an improvement or halt a downward slide - particularly in teams - regardless of the quality of the Head honcho. Won't bore you with the details, but it's well documented, was discovered by an Australian (Elton Mayo) and been known about for 100+ years.
But unless the underlying issues are understood and fixed, there's a big risk that improvement will be temporary and you'll be back to square one. Sure, some of those issues might be addressed in the short-term by the new bloke with some fresh ideas, but getting those ideas to stick is a heck of a lot harder than implementing them.
(Standard disclaimer: The above is not an endorsement of Foster)
That's it from me on the Organisational & Performance Improvement stuff. Gave up that career up ages ago as I'd had enough of it...
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@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew For certain, they may not be.
But, under Foster they are clearly a long way short of the mark. I've got zero doubt now that a coaching change has to happen and with a better coach we will do better.
A change will almost always bring an improvement or halt a downward slide - particularly in teams - regardless of the quality of the Head honcho. Won't bore you with the details, but it's well documented, was discovered by an Australian (Elton Mayo) and been known about for 100+ years.
But unless the underlying issues are understood and fixed, there's a big risk that improvement will be temporary and you'll be back to square one. Sure, some of those issues might be addressed in the short-term by the new bloke with some fresh ideas, but getting those ideas to stick is a heck of a lot harder than implementing them.
(Standard disclaimer: The above is not an endorsement of Foster)
That's it from me on the Organisational & Performance Improvement stuff. Gave up that career up ages ago as I'd had enough of it...
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew For certain, they may not be.
But, under Foster they are clearly a long way short of the mark. I've got zero doubt now that a coaching change has to happen and with a better coach we will do better.
A change will almost always bring an improvement or halt a downward slide - particularly in teams - regardless of the quality of the Head honcho. Won't bore you with the details, but it's well documented, was discovered by an Australian (Elton Mayo) and been known about for 100+ years.
But unless the underlying issues are understood and fixed, there's a big risk that improvement will be temporary and you'll be back to square one. Sure, some of those issues might be addressed in the short-term by the new bloke with some fresh ideas, but getting those ideas to stick is a heck of a lot harder than implementing them.
(Standard disclaimer: The above is not an endorsement of Foster)
That's it from me on the Organisational & Performance Improvement stuff. Gave up that career up ages ago as I'd had enough of it...
You could call it the Cheika Effect
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew For certain, they may not be.
But, under Foster they are clearly a long way short of the mark. I've got zero doubt now that a coaching change has to happen and with a better coach we will do better.
A change will almost always bring an improvement or halt a downward slide - particularly in teams - regardless of the quality of the Head honcho. Won't bore you with the details, but it's well documented, was discovered by an Australian (Elton Mayo) and been known about for 100+ years.
But unless the underlying issues are understood and fixed, there's a big risk that improvement will be temporary and you'll be back to square one. Sure, some of those issues might be addressed in the short-term by the new bloke with some fresh ideas, but getting those ideas to stick is a heck of a lot harder than implementing them.
(Standard disclaimer: The above is not an endorsement of Foster)
That's it from me on the Organisational & Performance Improvement stuff. Gave up that career up ages ago as I'd had enough of it...
You could call it the Cheika Effect
@Catogrande said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Chris-B said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew For certain, they may not be.
But, under Foster they are clearly a long way short of the mark. I've got zero doubt now that a coaching change has to happen and with a better coach we will do better.
A change will almost always bring an improvement or halt a downward slide - particularly in teams - regardless of the quality of the Head honcho. Won't bore you with the details, but it's well documented, was discovered by an Australian (Elton Mayo) and been known about for 100+ years.
But unless the underlying issues are understood and fixed, there's a big risk that improvement will be temporary and you'll be back to square one. Sure, some of those issues might be addressed in the short-term by the new bloke with some fresh ideas, but getting those ideas to stick is a heck of a lot harder than implementing them.
(Standard disclaimer: The above is not an endorsement of Foster)
That's it from me on the Organisational & Performance Improvement stuff. Gave up that career up ages ago as I'd had enough of it...
You could call it the Cheika Effect
One Australian discovering it and another proving it.
