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@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Catogrande said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
in truth there are loads like me. But where is our voice?
See, case of the outlier again. All the others that think that, actually could.
The first step is to admit your problem.
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@booboo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The argument re Semenya is that "she" is actually male. I'm reading that "her" affliction only affects males. Apologies for the quotation marks. One case I'd not object to they/them pronouns ...
Thet already do at elite level.
Been chatting to an elite athlete and told it's anything but simple with intersex people. (Colour me surprised). It's interesting stuff.
They abandoned chromosome testing a couple of decades ago as intersex people can have both XX and XY chromosomes at the same time in different cells. Even hormone testing is complicated as an intersex person can have unambiguous XX chromosomes but high testosterone levels....
IAAF don't regularly test for Testosterone levels and similar per se but for changes in levels as that indicates PEDs - they use something called a Blood Passport. There are protocols in place for people like Semenya who show unusual performance increases which look at a whole range of things (other than PEDs) like development of testes to ensure there's no advantage and, say, testosterone levels are lowered. They take medical history into account and it's regarded a bit like a medical condition.
Tricky situation for everyone. From what I heard, there's a fair bit of sympathy for people like Semenya as they are in a difficult situation thru no fault of their own.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@booboo if she’s male, why was she assigned female at birth?
You'd have to ask the medical staff at her birth.
I'd be guessing but may have something to do with lack of visible genetalia, due to testes being internal.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
So because you think one of the top athletes in mma could beat her all the women she’d have to beat along the way to get to a title fight should just deal with competing against what is effectively a man strength wise?
Not trolling, but can you put some grammar into that as I really don't understand it and would like to!
He used the example of Rhonda Rousey being able to take down CS.
To get to a title fight against someone of her calibre she’d have to beat a lot of other women along the way . The real point isn’t whether she’d beat Rousey but that she’d have an unfair advantage against the other contenders.
We already have the example of Fallon Fox , born male , fathered two kids then gets a couple of bolt ons tells no one he’s a man and competes in mma. Apparently he wasn’t actually that good technique wise but he had superior strength to women in his weight class and dominated them even crushing the skull of one of them . Eventually he came up against a woman who was a much better fighter and he got his balls handed to him . So yeah maybe RR could beat CS , a lot of women have to compete with her though for to get to that fight.
His Wikipedia page actually covers it quite well, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@booboo if she’s male, why was she assigned female at birth?
The term “assigned at birth” is based around external genitalia obviously. It’s a recent turn of phrase the trans community have adopted along with gender identity to muddy things.
Because of her testosterone she has male bone density and male strength . She’s intersex but presents as female .
For what it’s worth her school principal thought she was a boy till she was 16 .
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@paremata Actually my over arching point is not to compare the likes of Fallon Fox to CS. They are completely different scenarios. One is a dude, always been a dude who is now completely taking the piss. The other is a born female, who science has decided isn't actually female. They aren't the same.
I don't think you have a point re Rousey, as we are talking about top level sport. Rousey had to beat those same people as well, thus the contenders have already had to face somebody far superior. The advantages CS has over them is kind of what my point is all about - Is testosterone the be all and end all? It could well be, and one of the readings that antipodean sent through makes a rather compelling case.
@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The term “assigned at birth” is based around external genitalia obviously. It’s a recent turn of phrase the trans community have adopted along with gender identity to muddy things.
Because of her testosterone she has male bone density and male strength . She’s intersex but presents as female .
Yes, I agree with the first part. But the reality is that doctors assign at birth based on what they see. Thus, it's clear to me that CS has female genitals. And as i firmly agree with a straight female/male divide sport, I struggle with saying CS needs to be in the male. Yes, she has advantages over a lot of females, but how much do they change things? As let's be clear, the female traits has her a long way behind the men, and no training she could ever do would change that.
For what it’s worth her school principal thought she was a boy till she was 16 .
I genuinely didn't know that. If this is the case, then why was she competing at youth level in the female division? (rhetorical question)
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
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@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
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@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
No.
I consider biology science though, so probably best we don't discuss that bit.
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@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The term “assigned at birth” is based around external genitalia obviously. It’s a recent turn of phrase the trans community have adopted along with gender identity to muddy things.
Bit bored so I did some googling. Some surprising figures,
The term has little to do with the trans community and has been around in medical circles for decades. Google shows the sex of around 1 in 200 babies is indeterminate at birth and can weeks before it becomes clear and determined. Surprised by that - perhaps something which isn't talked about?
Even then about 0.2% of births result in genital ambiguity and are classed as intersex. That intersex figure is even higher if you count things like hormone levels & Chromosomes. Surprised by those figures but they are referenced, so assume many are regarded as a medical condition treatable with surgery, drugs etc in the West.
For what it’s worth her school principal thought she was a boy till she was 16 .
Read she suffered real abuse at school as she looked like a boy and often forced to strip to show her genitals or lack thereof. Regarded as a freak, she had a pretty appalling childhood because of the way she was born
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@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
No.
I consider biology science though, so probably best we don't discuss that bit.
So the conclusion is
- I think she has a vagina, which means that in my view the dr was correct to say she's female
- You think she doesn't really have a vagina, because she has internal testes (whatever that means), which means that she is actually male. Despite having a vagina. And tits.
Lets just leave it there.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female, who science has decided isn't actually female. They aren't the same.
First sentence: Semenya was born male, but incorrectly observed.
Second sentence: agree.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean I’m not going to lie and say I know what all of those mean and the advantage they give.
Everyone just talks about testosterone but what about all the other factors that make her female? And where does the testosterone levels produced stand on the male or female graphs?
Emma Hilton is an expert - she's a developmental biologist. The point her and Sharron Davies are making is that Caster is a male, competing unfairly against females.
Carol Hooven post is far more supportive of your views in my opinion. That does make me think.
We diverge tho as you call Caster male, which doesn’t seem to support her (external) genetalia.
She's XY.
It's irrelevant if Caster produces enough testosterone to compete professionally against men because Caster is competing against females who don't have the benefit of testes providing testosterone. And the science is clear about the benefits to athleticism that brings.
Woman do produce testosterone, hence why the question is valid and why the discussion of these levels / advantages vs other natural benefits is worth having.
Not in any way comparable to the amount produced by a male with testes.
I agree it's not the same as mentally ill, second rate male athletes taking the piss, but we either make female sport sacrosanct, or we send a very disturbing signal to young women everywhere.
Ok, so what signal are we sending re CS? That despite being an athlete she can’t really compete as she’s too male for female and too female to stand a chance against men?
She is a male and as such shouldn't be competing against females. If she's not good enough to compete against other males, too bad.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
clear to me that CS has female genitals.
Again, my reading is she (I'll use those pronouns out of respect) has internal male genitalia.
But that's doing research via Twitter.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
Dunno about @Bones but I'm saying that reports say she doesn't.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
No.
I consider biology science though, so probably best we don't discuss that bit.
So the conclusion is
- I think she has a vagina, which means that in my view the dr was correct to say she's female
- You think she doesn't really have a vagina, because she has internal testes (whatever that means), which means that she is actually male. Despite having a vagina. And tits.
Lets just leave it there.
Nice try.
I never said what I think.
Tits was a lovely last second addition though.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
