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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
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@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
No.
I consider biology science though, so probably best we don't discuss that bit.
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@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The term “assigned at birth” is based around external genitalia obviously. It’s a recent turn of phrase the trans community have adopted along with gender identity to muddy things.
Bit bored so I did some googling. Some surprising figures,
The term has little to do with the trans community and has been around in medical circles for decades. Google shows the sex of around 1 in 200 babies is indeterminate at birth and can weeks before it becomes clear and determined. Surprised by that - perhaps something which isn't talked about?
Even then about 0.2% of births result in genital ambiguity and are classed as intersex. That intersex figure is even higher if you count things like hormone levels & Chromosomes. Surprised by those figures but they are referenced, so assume many are regarded as a medical condition treatable with surgery, drugs etc in the West.
For what it’s worth her school principal thought she was a boy till she was 16 .
Read she suffered real abuse at school as she looked like a boy and often forced to strip to show her genitals or lack thereof. Regarded as a freak, she had a pretty appalling childhood because of the way she was born
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@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
No.
I consider biology science though, so probably best we don't discuss that bit.
So the conclusion is
- I think she has a vagina, which means that in my view the dr was correct to say she's female
- You think she doesn't really have a vagina, because she has internal testes (whatever that means), which means that she is actually male. Despite having a vagina. And tits.
Lets just leave it there.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female, who science has decided isn't actually female. They aren't the same.
First sentence: Semenya was born male, but incorrectly observed.
Second sentence: agree.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean I’m not going to lie and say I know what all of those mean and the advantage they give.
Everyone just talks about testosterone but what about all the other factors that make her female? And where does the testosterone levels produced stand on the male or female graphs?
Emma Hilton is an expert - she's a developmental biologist. The point her and Sharron Davies are making is that Caster is a male, competing unfairly against females.
Carol Hooven post is far more supportive of your views in my opinion. That does make me think.
We diverge tho as you call Caster male, which doesn’t seem to support her (external) genetalia.
She's XY.
It's irrelevant if Caster produces enough testosterone to compete professionally against men because Caster is competing against females who don't have the benefit of testes providing testosterone. And the science is clear about the benefits to athleticism that brings.
Woman do produce testosterone, hence why the question is valid and why the discussion of these levels / advantages vs other natural benefits is worth having.
Not in any way comparable to the amount produced by a male with testes.
I agree it's not the same as mentally ill, second rate male athletes taking the piss, but we either make female sport sacrosanct, or we send a very disturbing signal to young women everywhere.
Ok, so what signal are we sending re CS? That despite being an athlete she can’t really compete as she’s too male for female and too female to stand a chance against men?
She is a male and as such shouldn't be competing against females. If she's not good enough to compete against other males, too bad.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
clear to me that CS has female genitals.
Again, my reading is she (I'll use those pronouns out of respect) has internal male genitalia.
But that's doing research via Twitter.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
Dunno about @Bones but I'm saying that reports say she doesn't.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
No.
I consider biology science though, so probably best we don't discuss that bit.
So the conclusion is
- I think she has a vagina, which means that in my view the dr was correct to say she's female
- You think she doesn't really have a vagina, because she has internal testes (whatever that means), which means that she is actually male. Despite having a vagina. And tits.
Lets just leave it there.
Nice try.
I never said what I think.
Tits was a lovely last second addition though.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The other is a born female
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick.
That is exactly it. Genetalia says she's female. Science says she's not.
Wait a fucking minute. Genitalia isn't science? Testes aren't male genitalia?
Wait a fucking minute yourself. Are you saying she doesn't have female genitalia at all?
No.
I consider biology science though, so probably best we don't discuss that bit.
So the conclusion is
- I think she has a vagina, which means that in my view the dr was correct to say she's female
- You think she doesn't really have a vagina, because she has internal testes (whatever that means), which means that she is actually male. Despite having a vagina. And tits.
Lets just leave it there.
Caster doesn't have a vagina. In the same way Caster doesn't have a uterus or ovaries.
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@Bones It doesn't change anything about my over arching point. We had mainly been talking about at birth, where all of us are without tits.
I do genuinely see both sides of the debate. But I also genuinely think that the female traits she has will always hold her back from competing against males. Thus, I'm not quite prepared to call her a "male with a vagina", which I think is the consensus here.
How would I feel if she was competing against my daughter? I may well feel very different, but am trying to look at this from a neutral point of view.
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@antipodean I know, as far your concerned, she's 100% male. That point is coming across loud and clear.
I didn't want to go down the wormhole this far, as I think a lot of my thoughts are perhaps more emotionally based in that I genuinely feel extremely sorry for her.
I'll take a second attempt at just leaving it there.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean I know, as far your concerned, she's 100% male. That point is coming across loud and clear.
That looks suspiciously like assigning me an argument I'm not making; "100% male". I don't see anyone in this thread, least of all me, asserting Caster has external male genitalia. I've been at pains to rely on qualified expertise.
I didn't want to go down the wormhole this far, as I think a lot of my thoughts are perhaps more emotionally based in that I genuinely feel extremely sorry for her.
I have empathy for anyone suffering from DSD. But that doesn't change the point of safeguarding female sport:
So the “decision makers” are aware that athletes affected 5-ARD are male, and that they experience the benefits of male puberty. The requirement to reduce T to typical female levels isn’t discriminatory, since these are males who are asking to compete in the female category. But more significantly, all the relevant scientific evidence shows that reducing male T in adulthood does not undo the physical benefits of male puberty. -
@Bones why are you being combatative? I thought your position was quite clear as you wrote this:
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick
I’m really just quoting you back to you.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Bones why are you being combatative? I thought your position was quite clear as you wrote this:
Isn't that it though? Someone incorrectly decided SC is a female because no dick. When in actual fact, they're a bloke. Without a dick
I’m really just quoting you back to you.
Ok, so to put it back to you. You think SC is a female, because tits?
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@antipodean ok your right, you don’t say she was 100% male.
In my view you’ve implied that with your one sentence answers such as “she’s xy” etc.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
