Leon MacDonald Quits
-
i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
@mariner4life said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
Also, "attack coach" is so incredibly broad - does that mean he also has input into attacking scrums and lineouts? An "attack coach" in the broadest sense could end up duplicating a lot of what the head coach is supposed to do - and perhaps that was part of the problem.
-
@pakman well Scott Hansen has a coaching CV a lot more impressive than Rangi.
Hansen was a very important member of Japan's coaching staff during the 2019 World Cup, Hansen did not coach with Japan in 2023 and it really showed. By all accounts Hansen was hugely influential as an analyst of opposition & his game-planning for Japan 2019 and the Crusaders under Razor.
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@pakman well Scott Hansen has a coaching CV a lot more impressive than Rangi.
Hansen was a very important member of Japan's coaching staff during the 2019 World Cup, Hansen did not coach with Japan in 2023 and it really showed. By all accounts Hansen was hugely influential as an analyst of opposition & his game-planning for Japan 2019 and the Crusaders under Razor.
Scotty and Rangi bring very different attributes to the table. Rangi has been a head coach whereas Scotty has been an assistant or in technical support role. Just different characters that have had different experiences, levels of pressure etc.
-
@Landers92 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Anyone remember a few weeks ago what I was saying about this Leon McDonald situation? I can’t remember what thread it was in, maybe AB’s 2024. I wasn’t just saying stuff for the sake of it after all…
Pre or post Poms?
@pakman said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Landers92 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Anyone remember a few weeks ago what I was saying about this Leon McDonald situation? I can’t remember what thread it was in, maybe AB’s 2024. I wasn’t just saying stuff for the sake of it after all…
Pre or post Poms?
Throughout camp and during England series.
-
We have a chance we have Ryan, we have a scrum.
Razor under a large amount of pressure. Good luck. Lets go. Massive game.@BerniesCorner said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
We have a chance we have Ryan,
The latter makes me worry about the former.
-
@pakman well Scott Hansen has a coaching CV a lot more impressive than Rangi.
Hansen was a very important member of Japan's coaching staff during the 2019 World Cup, Hansen did not coach with Japan in 2023 and it really showed. By all accounts Hansen was hugely influential as an analyst of opposition & his game-planning for Japan 2019 and the Crusaders under Razor.
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@pakman well Scott Hansen has a coaching CV a lot more impressive than Rangi.
Hansen was a very important member of Japan's coaching staff during the 2019 World Cup, Hansen did not coach with Japan in 2023 and it really showed. By all accounts Hansen was hugely influential as an analyst of opposition & his game-planning for Japan 2019 and the Crusaders under Razor.
I don't think pakman is having a go at Hansen, and I kind of agree, if Razor is boss and other 4 equals as Razor indicated originally, perhaps Hansen had (rightly or wrongly) had opinions how Leons part should operate? Why I say should be only one back coach as such, and that could well be Hansen, so just make sure at start other's know?
-
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
@junior said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
Yeah - that certainly seems to be what they're saying.
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
Ta$man’s unbalanced ‘Shark attack’ system
The Mako$ run an ‘unbalanced’ 2-3-2-1 pattern as their main phase play structure.
If you cut the field in half, you have a 5-3 split of your 8-man forward pack, hence why it is ‘unbalanced’ based on man numbers.
Standard modern day systems (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) will both generally be balanced with a 4-4 distribution of the forwards. If you draw a line down the middle of the field, you could see even numbers on each side but here you have a 5-3 split.
the Mako have built the most frenetic attack in the competition and one of the more innovative structures in World Rugby.
If Leon wants to use some variant of this system and Razor doesn't - then that would be a pretty fundamental disagreement.
-
@junior said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
Yeah - that certainly seems to be what they're saying.
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
Ta$man’s unbalanced ‘Shark attack’ system
The Mako$ run an ‘unbalanced’ 2-3-2-1 pattern as their main phase play structure.
If you cut the field in half, you have a 5-3 split of your 8-man forward pack, hence why it is ‘unbalanced’ based on man numbers.
Standard modern day systems (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) will both generally be balanced with a 4-4 distribution of the forwards. If you draw a line down the middle of the field, you could see even numbers on each side but here you have a 5-3 split.
the Mako have built the most frenetic attack in the competition and one of the more innovative structures in World Rugby.
If Leon wants to use some variant of this system and Razor doesn't - then that would be a pretty fundamental disagreement.
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
source please? can't just not provide a link, you could be making it up for all we know.
-
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
source please? can't just not provide a link, you could be making it up for all we know.
@darylmitchell Do you want to bet on that!
Google Leon MacDonald and Ta$man pod system.
The headline will trigger a few people and I'm not interested in that discussion.
-
@junior said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
Yeah - that certainly seems to be what they're saying.
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
Ta$man’s unbalanced ‘Shark attack’ system
The Mako$ run an ‘unbalanced’ 2-3-2-1 pattern as their main phase play structure.
If you cut the field in half, you have a 5-3 split of your 8-man forward pack, hence why it is ‘unbalanced’ based on man numbers.
Standard modern day systems (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) will both generally be balanced with a 4-4 distribution of the forwards. If you draw a line down the middle of the field, you could see even numbers on each side but here you have a 5-3 split.
the Mako have built the most frenetic attack in the competition and one of the more innovative structures in World Rugby.
If Leon wants to use some variant of this system and Razor doesn't - then that would be a pretty fundamental disagreement.
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@junior said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
Yeah - that certainly seems to be what they're saying.
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
Ta$man’s unbalanced ‘Shark attack’ system
The Mako$ run an ‘unbalanced’ 2-3-2-1 pattern as their main phase play structure.
If you cut the field in half, you have a 5-3 split of your 8-man forward pack, hence why it is ‘unbalanced’ based on man numbers.
Standard modern day systems (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) will both generally be balanced with a 4-4 distribution of the forwards. If you draw a line down the middle of the field, you could see even numbers on each side but here you have a 5-3 split.
the Mako have built the most frenetic attack in the competition and one of the more innovative structures in World Rugby.
If Leon wants to use some variant of this system and Razor doesn't - then that would be a pretty fundamental disagreement.
Seems a weird hill for Rangi to die on considering he's not head coach. As, I think, @antipodean noted earlier in the thread sometimes you just have to put aside your preferences and implement what the boss wants.
Or you leave. TBF, I've left a job before because I've thought the boss was an idiot and what he wanted was idiotic. And I've stayed in jobs while not agreeing 100% with the direction because I trust the boss.
So looks like I've talked myself out of it being a weird hill for Rangi to die on in the space of the post.
-
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@junior said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
Yeah - that certainly seems to be what they're saying.
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
Ta$man’s unbalanced ‘Shark attack’ system
The Mako$ run an ‘unbalanced’ 2-3-2-1 pattern as their main phase play structure.
If you cut the field in half, you have a 5-3 split of your 8-man forward pack, hence why it is ‘unbalanced’ based on man numbers.
Standard modern day systems (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) will both generally be balanced with a 4-4 distribution of the forwards. If you draw a line down the middle of the field, you could see even numbers on each side but here you have a 5-3 split.
the Mako have built the most frenetic attack in the competition and one of the more innovative structures in World Rugby.
If Leon wants to use some variant of this system and Razor doesn't - then that would be a pretty fundamental disagreement.
Seems a weird hill for Rangi to die on considering he's not head coach. As, I think, @antipodean noted earlier in the thread sometimes you just have to put aside your preferences and implement what the boss wants.
Or you leave. TBF, I've left a job before because I've thought the boss was an idiot and what he wanted was idiotic. And I've stayed in jobs while not agreeing 100% with the direction because I trust the boss.
So looks like I've talked myself out of it being a weird hill for Rangi to die on in the space of the post.
@Nepia The conversation between Leon and Razor might have been close to the opposite of what I speculated earlier.
Razor: This system isn't working Rangi - if we go to SA and use it, we're going to get our arses handed to us in a hat.
Leon: The boys just need a bit more time. It'll click and be great.
Razor: We don't have more time. We're going back to what I know.
Leon: You're going to need a new attack coach then!
Razor: I've got one.
-
Nah I think it's more like:
Rangi: Hey Surf Jesus how about this plan, might work better than the one we've been trying.
Razor: Nah Rungs, this one is perfect and Tubby Bitch has promised me it will all work out perfectly when his bestie Shannon returns from terrorising young women and their boyfriends in Japan.
Rangi:
https://tenor.com/en-GB/view/simpsons-homer-simpson-gif-13518564799186478937 -
@darylmitchell Do you want to bet on that!
Google Leon MacDonald and Ta$man pod system.
The headline will trigger a few people and I'm not interested in that discussion.
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Leon MacDonald and Ta$man pod system
nope can't find it, can you remember the year, title of the article?
-
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Leon MacDonald and Ta$man pod system
nope can't find it, can you remember the year, title of the article?
@darylmitchell 24 September 2018
Analysis: How Ta$man are transforming
-
@Jet said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt due their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
I still genuinely wonder if they got one too many in front line coaches. I tend to think 1 for forwards , 1 for backs and a boss should help with clarity of who or what does what?
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Jet said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt due their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
I still genuinely wonder if they got one too many in front line coaches. I tend to think 1 for forwards , 1 for backs and a boss should help with clarity of who or what does what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_rugby_union_team#Coaches
Steve Borthwick Head Coach / Lineout Coach
Richard Wigglesworth Attack Coach
Felix Jones Defence Coach
Kevin Sinfield Skills & Kicking Coach
Tom Harrison Scrum Coach
Aled Walters Head of Strength & Conditioning
Tom Tombleson Strength & Conditioning Coach
Richard Hill Team Manager
Andrew Strawbridge Coaching Consultant
George Kruis Lineout Consultant
Jonny Wilkinson Kicking Consultant -
South Africa have more full-time coaches than All Blacks even with Leon (5), Ellison Hill and Flynn were only part-time and spent a few hours a week at most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team.
Rassie Erasmus Director of Rugby
Jerry Flannery Defence Coach
Tony Brown Attack Coach
Deon Davids Forwards Coach
Mzwandile Stick Backs Coach
Duane Vermeulen Assistant Coach
Daan Human Scrum Consultant
Jaco Peyper Laws AdviserAnd yes Peyper, Vermeulen, Human are full-time, they do media press conferences.
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
-
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
source please? can't just not provide a link, you could be making it up for all we know.
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
source please? can't just not provide a link, you could be making it up for all we know.
Awful analysis, incorrect conclusions, zero insight
Wrong about pretty much everythingWe don’t post sources or links but will name drop…
-
South Africa have more full-time coaches than All Blacks even with Leon (5), Ellison Hill and Flynn were only part-time and spent a few hours a week at most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team.
Rassie Erasmus Director of Rugby
Jerry Flannery Defence Coach
Tony Brown Attack Coach
Deon Davids Forwards Coach
Mzwandile Stick Backs Coach
Duane Vermeulen Assistant Coach
Daan Human Scrum Consultant
Jaco Peyper Laws AdviserAnd yes Peyper, Vermeulen, Human are full-time, they do media press conferences.
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
Only if we don't trounce SA. I still maintain England aren't a great team under Borthwick, so not sure they're a good yardstick.
-
South Africa have more full-time coaches than All Blacks even with Leon (5), Ellison Hill and Flynn were only part-time and spent a few hours a week at most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team.
Rassie Erasmus Director of Rugby
Jerry Flannery Defence Coach
Tony Brown Attack Coach
Deon Davids Forwards Coach
Mzwandile Stick Backs Coach
Duane Vermeulen Assistant Coach
Daan Human Scrum Consultant
Jaco Peyper Laws AdviserAnd yes Peyper, Vermeulen, Human are full-time, they do media press conferences.
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.
