Leon MacDonald Quits
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@junior said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
Yeah - that certainly seems to be what they're saying.
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
Ta$man’s unbalanced ‘Shark attack’ system
The Mako$ run an ‘unbalanced’ 2-3-2-1 pattern as their main phase play structure.
If you cut the field in half, you have a 5-3 split of your 8-man forward pack, hence why it is ‘unbalanced’ based on man numbers.
Standard modern day systems (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) will both generally be balanced with a 4-4 distribution of the forwards. If you draw a line down the middle of the field, you could see even numbers on each side but here you have a 5-3 split.
the Mako have built the most frenetic attack in the competition and one of the more innovative structures in World Rugby.
If Leon wants to use some variant of this system and Razor doesn't - then that would be a pretty fundamental disagreement.
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@junior said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
Yeah - that certainly seems to be what they're saying.
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
Ta$man’s unbalanced ‘Shark attack’ system
The Mako$ run an ‘unbalanced’ 2-3-2-1 pattern as their main phase play structure.
If you cut the field in half, you have a 5-3 split of your 8-man forward pack, hence why it is ‘unbalanced’ based on man numbers.
Standard modern day systems (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) will both generally be balanced with a 4-4 distribution of the forwards. If you draw a line down the middle of the field, you could see even numbers on each side but here you have a 5-3 split.
the Mako have built the most frenetic attack in the competition and one of the more innovative structures in World Rugby.
If Leon wants to use some variant of this system and Razor doesn't - then that would be a pretty fundamental disagreement.
Seems a weird hill for Rangi to die on considering he's not head coach. As, I think, @antipodean noted earlier in the thread sometimes you just have to put aside your preferences and implement what the boss wants.
Or you leave. TBF, I've left a job before because I've thought the boss was an idiot and what he wanted was idiotic. And I've stayed in jobs while not agreeing 100% with the direction because I trust the boss.
So looks like I've talked myself out of it being a weird hill for Rangi to die on in the space of the post.
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@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@junior said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
Or maybe Razor wants the attack to function in a certain way, and Leon just said "Look, I can't coach an attack to play that way because I have developed a style that is completely geared towards something else."
Yeah - that certainly seems to be what they're saying.
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
Ta$man’s unbalanced ‘Shark attack’ system
The Mako$ run an ‘unbalanced’ 2-3-2-1 pattern as their main phase play structure.
If you cut the field in half, you have a 5-3 split of your 8-man forward pack, hence why it is ‘unbalanced’ based on man numbers.
Standard modern day systems (1-3-3-1 and 2-4-2) will both generally be balanced with a 4-4 distribution of the forwards. If you draw a line down the middle of the field, you could see even numbers on each side but here you have a 5-3 split.
the Mako have built the most frenetic attack in the competition and one of the more innovative structures in World Rugby.
If Leon wants to use some variant of this system and Razor doesn't - then that would be a pretty fundamental disagreement.
Seems a weird hill for Rangi to die on considering he's not head coach. As, I think, @antipodean noted earlier in the thread sometimes you just have to put aside your preferences and implement what the boss wants.
Or you leave. TBF, I've left a job before because I've thought the boss was an idiot and what he wanted was idiotic. And I've stayed in jobs while not agreeing 100% with the direction because I trust the boss.
So looks like I've talked myself out of it being a weird hill for Rangi to die on in the space of the post.
@Nepia The conversation between Leon and Razor might have been close to the opposite of what I speculated earlier.
Razor: This system isn't working Rangi - if we go to SA and use it, we're going to get our arses handed to us in a hat.
Leon: The boys just need a bit more time. It'll click and be great.
Razor: We don't have more time. We're going back to what I know.
Leon: You're going to need a new attack coach then!
Razor: I've got one.
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Nah I think it's more like:
Rangi: Hey Surf Jesus how about this plan, might work better than the one we've been trying.
Razor: Nah Rungs, this one is perfect and Tubby Bitch has promised me it will all work out perfectly when his bestie Shannon returns from terrorising young women and their boyfriends in Japan.
Rangi:
https://tenor.com/en-GB/view/simpsons-homer-simpson-gif-13518564799186478937 -
@darylmitchell Do you want to bet on that!
Google Leon MacDonald and Ta$man pod system.
The headline will trigger a few people and I'm not interested in that discussion.
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Leon MacDonald and Ta$man pod system
nope can't find it, can you remember the year, title of the article?
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@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Leon MacDonald and Ta$man pod system
nope can't find it, can you remember the year, title of the article?
@darylmitchell 24 September 2018
Analysis: How Ta$man are transforming
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@Jet said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt due their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
I still genuinely wonder if they got one too many in front line coaches. I tend to think 1 for forwards , 1 for backs and a boss should help with clarity of who or what does what?
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Jet said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt due their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
I still genuinely wonder if they got one too many in front line coaches. I tend to think 1 for forwards , 1 for backs and a boss should help with clarity of who or what does what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_rugby_union_team#Coaches
Steve Borthwick Head Coach / Lineout Coach
Richard Wigglesworth Attack Coach
Felix Jones Defence Coach
Kevin Sinfield Skills & Kicking Coach
Tom Harrison Scrum Coach
Aled Walters Head of Strength & Conditioning
Tom Tombleson Strength & Conditioning Coach
Richard Hill Team Manager
Andrew Strawbridge Coaching Consultant
George Kruis Lineout Consultant
Jonny Wilkinson Kicking Consultant -
South Africa have more full-time coaches than All Blacks even with Leon (5), Ellison Hill and Flynn were only part-time and spent a few hours a week at most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team.
Rassie Erasmus Director of Rugby
Jerry Flannery Defence Coach
Tony Brown Attack Coach
Deon Davids Forwards Coach
Mzwandile Stick Backs Coach
Duane Vermeulen Assistant Coach
Daan Human Scrum Consultant
Jaco Peyper Laws AdviserAnd yes Peyper, Vermeulen, Human are full-time, they do media press conferences.
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
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@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
source please? can't just not provide a link, you could be making it up for all we know.
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
source please? can't just not provide a link, you could be making it up for all we know.
Awful analysis, incorrect conclusions, zero insight
Wrong about pretty much everythingWe don’t post sources or links but will name drop…
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South Africa have more full-time coaches than All Blacks even with Leon (5), Ellison Hill and Flynn were only part-time and spent a few hours a week at most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team.
Rassie Erasmus Director of Rugby
Jerry Flannery Defence Coach
Tony Brown Attack Coach
Deon Davids Forwards Coach
Mzwandile Stick Backs Coach
Duane Vermeulen Assistant Coach
Daan Human Scrum Consultant
Jaco Peyper Laws AdviserAnd yes Peyper, Vermeulen, Human are full-time, they do media press conferences.
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
Only if we don't trounce SA. I still maintain England aren't a great team under Borthwick, so not sure they're a good yardstick.
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South Africa have more full-time coaches than All Blacks even with Leon (5), Ellison Hill and Flynn were only part-time and spent a few hours a week at most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team.
Rassie Erasmus Director of Rugby
Jerry Flannery Defence Coach
Tony Brown Attack Coach
Deon Davids Forwards Coach
Mzwandile Stick Backs Coach
Duane Vermeulen Assistant Coach
Daan Human Scrum Consultant
Jaco Peyper Laws AdviserAnd yes Peyper, Vermeulen, Human are full-time, they do media press conferences.
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway. -
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
That seems to me anyway too many chiefs, too many crusaders, not enough indians.
Fixed it for you.
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@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.I agree there's too many selectors. I wasn't pleased about McDonald and Holland becoming selectors the moment it was made public... you are being dishonest, you said there are too many coaches, South Africa and England have more coaches than us. Ireland have the same as us.
The size of Razor's coaching group is nothing abnormal in 2024, the top JRL club sides over in Japan have a management group 20-25 people.
I'm tired of all the boomers on Stuff complaining about this as well, someone always banging on that surely other international sides don't have this many coaches, well yes they do actually, we just had England tour here, all it takes is a quick google search to find out their coaching staff, this is easily accessible information people.
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@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.I agree there's too many selectors. I wasn't pleased about McDonald and Holland becoming selectors the moment it was made public... you are being dishonest, you said there are too many coaches, South Africa and England have more coaches than us. Ireland have the same as us.
The size of Razor's coaching group is nothing abnormal in 2024, the top JRL club sides over in Japan have a management group 20-25 people.
I'm tired of all the boomers on Stuff complaining about this as well, someone always banging on that surely other international sides don't have this many coaches, well yes they do actually, we just had England tour here, all it takes is a quick google search to find out their coaching staff, this is easily accessible information people.
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.I agree there's too many selectors. I wasn't pleased about McDonald and Holland becoming selectors the moment it was made public... you are being dishonest, you said there are too many coaches, South Africa and England have more coaches than us. Ireland have the same as us.
The size of Razor's coaching group is nothing abnormal in 2024, the top JRL club sides over in Japan have a management group 20-25 people.
I'm tired of all the boomers on Stuff complaining about this as well, someone always banging on that surely other international sides don't have this many coaches, well yes they do actually, we just had England tour here, all it takes is a quick google search to find out their coaching staff, this is easily accessible information people.
Just a point I am not lying (which you accuse me of by saying I dishonest) merely expressing an opinion that we have too many coaches. I believe it helps for a team to have clarity in who is in charge, and tells them what to do or how they play.
And secondally yes I am a boomer, but find where just once I have said we have more coaches than other international team, and have never seen anyone post that comment on here.
I don't know or care how 'other' teams do it. I follow and support All Blacks at test level.
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I don't think it's the size of the coahcing group per-se, but the rather confusing use of the word "assistant coach", see below 4 assistant coachs.
Assistant coach implies that there's more to your role than simply coaching the forwards or the backs but having a say in the philisophy and style of the team.
It may simply be a case of getting tied up in semantics and the word "assistant" doesn't actually mean anything, but none of us really know what the assistant coach bit means.
Was Leon's issue with the attack coach part? The assistant coach part (which we don't really know what it was) or a combinaiton of both?
I can see why people are getting confused and saying there's too many coach's, far too many assistant coach's for a start!
What is clear however is that Roberston is Head Coach and that there were irreconcilable differences between him and Leon.
Scott Roberston (Head Coach)
Jason Ryan (Assistant Coach - Forwards)
Leon MacDonald (Assistant Coach - Attack)
Scott Hansen (Assistant Coach - Defence)
Jason Holland (Assistant Coach - Backs)
Tamati Ellison (Contact Skills Coach)
Wayne Smith (Performance Coach) -
I don't think it's the size of the coahcing group per-se, but the rather confusing use of the word "assistant coach", see below 4 assistant coachs.
Assistant coach implies that there's more to your role than simply coaching the forwards or the backs but having a say in the philisophy and style of the team.
It may simply be a case of getting tied up in semantics and the word "assistant" doesn't actually mean anything, but none of us really know what the assistant coach bit means.
Was Leon's issue with the attack coach part? The assistant coach part (which we don't really know what it was) or a combinaiton of both?
I can see why people are getting confused and saying there's too many coach's, far too many assistant coach's for a start!
What is clear however is that Roberston is Head Coach and that there were irreconcilable differences between him and Leon.
Scott Roberston (Head Coach)
Jason Ryan (Assistant Coach - Forwards)
Leon MacDonald (Assistant Coach - Attack)
Scott Hansen (Assistant Coach - Defence)
Jason Holland (Assistant Coach - Backs)
Tamati Ellison (Contact Skills Coach)
Wayne Smith (Performance Coach)@Windows97 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
I don't think it's the size of the coahcing group per-se, but the rather confusing use of the word "assistant coach", see below 4 assistant coachs.
Assistant coach implies that there's more to your role than simply coaching the forwards or the backs but having a say in the philisophy and style of the team.
It may simply be a case of getting tied up in semantics and the word "assistant" doesn't actually mean anything, but none of us really know what the assistant coach bit means.
Was Leon's issue with the attack coach part? The assistant coach part (which we don't really know what it was) or a combinaiton of both?
I can see why people are getting confused and saying there's too many coach's, far too many assistant coach's for a start!
What is clear however is that Roberston is Head Coach and that there were irreconcilable differences between him and Leon.
Scott Roberston (Head Coach)
Jason Ryan (Assistant Coach - Forwards)
Leon MacDonald (Assistant Coach - Attack)
Scott Hansen (Assistant Coach - Defence)
Jason Holland (Assistant Coach - Backs)
Tamati Ellison (Contact Skills Coach)
Wayne Smith (Performance Coach)Including Wayne Smith (NZR high performance advisor) here is like including ARU high performance advisor David Nucifora as a member of the Wallabies coaching staff.
Wayne Smith is not involved in any aspect of coaching, he 66 and is essentially retired now, he is only acting as a mentor to Alan Bunting and Razor.
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@sparky why does he need to say anything?
Its not like Razor has come out and said hes a fluffybunny, a useless coach, players thought he was a twat and needs to defend himself...there doesnt have to be drama
Am sure he will talk about it when he is ready, I expect he is probably quite gutted about what has transpired, but if as Razor has said, things just werent gelling, I am sure he knew that as well.
