Leon MacDonald Quits
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@Jet said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt due their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
I still genuinely wonder if they got one too many in front line coaches. I tend to think 1 for forwards , 1 for backs and a boss should help with clarity of who or what does what?
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Jet said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt due their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
I still genuinely wonder if they got one too many in front line coaches. I tend to think 1 for forwards , 1 for backs and a boss should help with clarity of who or what does what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_rugby_union_team#Coaches
Steve Borthwick Head Coach / Lineout Coach
Richard Wigglesworth Attack Coach
Felix Jones Defence Coach
Kevin Sinfield Skills & Kicking Coach
Tom Harrison Scrum Coach
Aled Walters Head of Strength & Conditioning
Tom Tombleson Strength & Conditioning Coach
Richard Hill Team Manager
Andrew Strawbridge Coaching Consultant
George Kruis Lineout Consultant
Jonny Wilkinson Kicking Consultant -
South Africa have more full-time coaches than All Blacks even with Leon (5), Ellison Hill and Flynn were only part-time and spent a few hours a week at most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team.
Rassie Erasmus Director of Rugby
Jerry Flannery Defence Coach
Tony Brown Attack Coach
Deon Davids Forwards Coach
Mzwandile Stick Backs Coach
Duane Vermeulen Assistant Coach
Daan Human Scrum Consultant
Jaco Peyper Laws AdviserAnd yes Peyper, Vermeulen, Human are full-time, they do media press conferences.
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
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@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
source please? can't just not provide a link, you could be making it up for all we know.
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Chris-B said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
There's some rugbypass articles that talk about the "Shark Attack" pod system, Leon developed at Ta$man and apparently continued using at the Blues.
source please? can't just not provide a link, you could be making it up for all we know.
Awful analysis, incorrect conclusions, zero insight
Wrong about pretty much everythingWe don’t post sources or links but will name drop…
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South Africa have more full-time coaches than All Blacks even with Leon (5), Ellison Hill and Flynn were only part-time and spent a few hours a week at most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team.
Rassie Erasmus Director of Rugby
Jerry Flannery Defence Coach
Tony Brown Attack Coach
Deon Davids Forwards Coach
Mzwandile Stick Backs Coach
Duane Vermeulen Assistant Coach
Daan Human Scrum Consultant
Jaco Peyper Laws AdviserAnd yes Peyper, Vermeulen, Human are full-time, they do media press conferences.
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
Only if we don't trounce SA. I still maintain England aren't a great team under Borthwick, so not sure they're a good yardstick.
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South Africa have more full-time coaches than All Blacks even with Leon (5), Ellison Hill and Flynn were only part-time and spent a few hours a week at most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_national_rugby_union_team.
Rassie Erasmus Director of Rugby
Jerry Flannery Defence Coach
Tony Brown Attack Coach
Deon Davids Forwards Coach
Mzwandile Stick Backs Coach
Duane Vermeulen Assistant Coach
Daan Human Scrum Consultant
Jaco Peyper Laws AdviserAnd yes Peyper, Vermeulen, Human are full-time, they do media press conferences.
Can we please stop this misconception that Razor has too many assistant coaches?
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway. -
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
That seems to me anyway too many chiefs, too many crusaders, not enough indians.
Fixed it for you.
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@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.I agree there's too many selectors. I wasn't pleased about McDonald and Holland becoming selectors the moment it was made public... you are being dishonest, you said there are too many coaches, South Africa and England have more coaches than us. Ireland have the same as us.
The size of Razor's coaching group is nothing abnormal in 2024, the top JRL club sides over in Japan have a management group 20-25 people.
I'm tired of all the boomers on Stuff complaining about this as well, someone always banging on that surely other international sides don't have this many coaches, well yes they do actually, we just had England tour here, all it takes is a quick google search to find out their coaching staff, this is easily accessible information people.
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@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.I agree there's too many selectors. I wasn't pleased about McDonald and Holland becoming selectors the moment it was made public... you are being dishonest, you said there are too many coaches, South Africa and England have more coaches than us. Ireland have the same as us.
The size of Razor's coaching group is nothing abnormal in 2024, the top JRL club sides over in Japan have a management group 20-25 people.
I'm tired of all the boomers on Stuff complaining about this as well, someone always banging on that surely other international sides don't have this many coaches, well yes they do actually, we just had England tour here, all it takes is a quick google search to find out their coaching staff, this is easily accessible information people.
@darylmitchell said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@darylmitchell Yep mate, I know we have has kicking coaches and attack coaches, and no probs, just normally you have something like say Foster,Ryan and Schmaidt, or Henry, Hansen and Smith etc etc. They still had other coaches, but there was boss, 2 assistants as such from what I can gather set game plan etc. Then scrum, skills , lineout etc. I just have feeling when you got one in charge of forwards, and 3 in charge of backs too many voices at setting game plans and telling players what they are to do. Razor himself said Hansen picked and was responsible for inside backs, Holland for midfield and Leon for outside. That seems to me anyway too many chiefs , not enough indians.
It's not about who talks on camera, but who actually sets things. Just to me anyway.I agree there's too many selectors. I wasn't pleased about McDonald and Holland becoming selectors the moment it was made public... you are being dishonest, you said there are too many coaches, South Africa and England have more coaches than us. Ireland have the same as us.
The size of Razor's coaching group is nothing abnormal in 2024, the top JRL club sides over in Japan have a management group 20-25 people.
I'm tired of all the boomers on Stuff complaining about this as well, someone always banging on that surely other international sides don't have this many coaches, well yes they do actually, we just had England tour here, all it takes is a quick google search to find out their coaching staff, this is easily accessible information people.
Just a point I am not lying (which you accuse me of by saying I dishonest) merely expressing an opinion that we have too many coaches. I believe it helps for a team to have clarity in who is in charge, and tells them what to do or how they play.
And secondally yes I am a boomer, but find where just once I have said we have more coaches than other international team, and have never seen anyone post that comment on here.
I don't know or care how 'other' teams do it. I follow and support All Blacks at test level.
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I don't think it's the size of the coahcing group per-se, but the rather confusing use of the word "assistant coach", see below 4 assistant coachs.
Assistant coach implies that there's more to your role than simply coaching the forwards or the backs but having a say in the philisophy and style of the team.
It may simply be a case of getting tied up in semantics and the word "assistant" doesn't actually mean anything, but none of us really know what the assistant coach bit means.
Was Leon's issue with the attack coach part? The assistant coach part (which we don't really know what it was) or a combinaiton of both?
I can see why people are getting confused and saying there's too many coach's, far too many assistant coach's for a start!
What is clear however is that Roberston is Head Coach and that there were irreconcilable differences between him and Leon.
Scott Roberston (Head Coach)
Jason Ryan (Assistant Coach - Forwards)
Leon MacDonald (Assistant Coach - Attack)
Scott Hansen (Assistant Coach - Defence)
Jason Holland (Assistant Coach - Backs)
Tamati Ellison (Contact Skills Coach)
Wayne Smith (Performance Coach) -
I don't think it's the size of the coahcing group per-se, but the rather confusing use of the word "assistant coach", see below 4 assistant coachs.
Assistant coach implies that there's more to your role than simply coaching the forwards or the backs but having a say in the philisophy and style of the team.
It may simply be a case of getting tied up in semantics and the word "assistant" doesn't actually mean anything, but none of us really know what the assistant coach bit means.
Was Leon's issue with the attack coach part? The assistant coach part (which we don't really know what it was) or a combinaiton of both?
I can see why people are getting confused and saying there's too many coach's, far too many assistant coach's for a start!
What is clear however is that Roberston is Head Coach and that there were irreconcilable differences between him and Leon.
Scott Roberston (Head Coach)
Jason Ryan (Assistant Coach - Forwards)
Leon MacDonald (Assistant Coach - Attack)
Scott Hansen (Assistant Coach - Defence)
Jason Holland (Assistant Coach - Backs)
Tamati Ellison (Contact Skills Coach)
Wayne Smith (Performance Coach)@Windows97 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
I don't think it's the size of the coahcing group per-se, but the rather confusing use of the word "assistant coach", see below 4 assistant coachs.
Assistant coach implies that there's more to your role than simply coaching the forwards or the backs but having a say in the philisophy and style of the team.
It may simply be a case of getting tied up in semantics and the word "assistant" doesn't actually mean anything, but none of us really know what the assistant coach bit means.
Was Leon's issue with the attack coach part? The assistant coach part (which we don't really know what it was) or a combinaiton of both?
I can see why people are getting confused and saying there's too many coach's, far too many assistant coach's for a start!
What is clear however is that Roberston is Head Coach and that there were irreconcilable differences between him and Leon.
Scott Roberston (Head Coach)
Jason Ryan (Assistant Coach - Forwards)
Leon MacDonald (Assistant Coach - Attack)
Scott Hansen (Assistant Coach - Defence)
Jason Holland (Assistant Coach - Backs)
Tamati Ellison (Contact Skills Coach)
Wayne Smith (Performance Coach)Including Wayne Smith (NZR high performance advisor) here is like including ARU high performance advisor David Nucifora as a member of the Wallabies coaching staff.
Wayne Smith is not involved in any aspect of coaching, he 66 and is essentially retired now, he is only acting as a mentor to Alan Bunting and Razor.
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@sparky why does he need to say anything?
Its not like Razor has come out and said hes a fluffybunny, a useless coach, players thought he was a twat and needs to defend himself...there doesnt have to be drama
Am sure he will talk about it when he is ready, I expect he is probably quite gutted about what has transpired, but if as Razor has said, things just werent gelling, I am sure he knew that as well.
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Probably signed an NDA for filthy lucre
@DaGrubster said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Probably signed an NDA for filthy lucre
If other posters' accounts are true, the guy is not one to say much. Perhaps he just wants to quietly get on with his life and find another gig
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@DaGrubster said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Probably signed an NDA for filthy lucre
If other posters' accounts are true, the guy is not one to say much. Perhaps he just wants to quietly get on with his life and find another gig
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@DaGrubster said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Probably signed an NDA for filthy lucre
If other posters' accounts are true, the guy is not one to say much. Perhaps he just wants to quietly get on with his life and find another gig
@canefan said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@DaGrubster said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Probably signed an NDA for filthy lucre
If other posters' accounts are true, the guy is not one to say much. Perhaps he just wants to quietly get on with his life and find another gig
If he got a payoff, which I am sure he would have, then a compromise agreement will include confidentiality clauses.
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it was probably a sweet deal where Rangi gets to coach the Crusaders with Mark Hammett as his assistant coach.
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@sparky why does he need to say anything?
Its not like Razor has come out and said hes a fluffybunny, a useless coach, players thought he was a twat and needs to defend himself...there doesnt have to be drama
Am sure he will talk about it when he is ready, I expect he is probably quite gutted about what has transpired, but if as Razor has said, things just werent gelling, I am sure he knew that as well.
@taniwharugby said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@sparky why does he need to say anything?
Its not like Razor has come out and said hes a fluffybunny, a useless coach, players thought he was a twat and needs to defend himself...there doesnt have to be drama
Am sure he will talk about it when he is ready, I expect he is probably quite gutted about what has transpired, but if as Razor has said, things just werent gelling, I am sure he knew that as well.
Oh yes there does. Ingrained in NZ male culture and people are addicted to it.
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@Bovidae said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
Hinton, Goile, Cull
this one? Quite a few different takes in that article.
@nostrildamus said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
@Bovidae said in Springboks vs All Blacks I:
Hinton, Goile, Cull
this one? Quite a few different takes in that article.
biggest takeaway from that article is from Cully:
"it again shines an unflattering light on the All Blacks coaching appointment process. MacDonald's hasty exit means his recruitment was a mistake from the outset, and there is a further layer to it.
In the period between Scott Robertson getting the job last year and finalising his coaching team, I contacted Tony Brown to see if he had been approached.
Brown, who has always been a straight-shooter with me, said no but he was available and was looking for a job because his old mate Jamie Joseph had already decided to head back to NZ.
So, the All Blacks might have also missed out on Brown by going with MacDonald − to the Springboks' benefit."
