All Blacks 2024
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Some posters seem to forget we played with 13 men at a key part of the game.
Don't think anyone's forgotten the poor discipline at key parts of the game we've seen creeping back in.
I seem to recall it was a feature of Foster's teams as well.
Which, considering we've gone backwards, kinda proves the point that Robertson (a) isn't the coaching Jesus he was hyped up to be or (b) both are equally good coaches and there's deeper problems.
You've hated Razor since day one and didn't even want him as coach. You're comparing 6 tests to 4 years of substandard, mediocre horse manure. I'm disheartened as any one else about the current results and honestly expected more from this side this year but give me a break. You want Razor to fail to prove your narrative.
This seems a little unfair..
I don't know how many times those of us who were skeptical about Robertson were told how much better things would be by his fanbase. The postings post Foster reappointment and Robertson drubbing were really quite nasty. I mean, look at what you've written about the 4 years where we didn't perform as high as AB standards of years gone by. Won the RC every year, and came within a bees dick of the WC. Given the closing of gaps of the top teams, thats not that bad.
So here we are, with a misfiring AB team under Robertson, and people are rightly asking where this brilliance is that we were told was going to happen.
Victors point is a fair one.
Nah, it's not. We went badly backwards under Foster, with obvious problems which were not addressed over a long period of time. We played shit, and selections were shit.
All apparently forgiven due to the mighty RWC turnaround which consisted of: lost to France, beat Ireland and Argentina, lost to SA.People couldn't understand why you would appoint a head coach with zero head coach success and what is perceived to be a shit coach selection process, and the result of that was a sense of relief that we would get a coach who had been successful. It's got nothing to do with this false 'messiah' bullshit, it's a straight reaction to the shit process last time around which resulted in shit results.
The point of falsely comparing 6 tests vs years of shit with no improvement is the fair one.
We've gone from winning the RC and narrowly losing a RWC final by one point to probably coming 3rd in the RC and narrowly winning against the 9th ranked team in the world.
At least we can feel relieved the coach selection process was done right this time round.,
The process is important. Disregarding Robertson, we have a number of very good coaches around in Schmidt, Joseph, Rennie - and any process which doesn't give us the best chance of having the best applicants apply is terrible management.
We've gone from multiple years of shit to some more shit - I think personally with glimpses of improvement (i.e. first 40 in SA) - but even if you don't think that, there is a world of difference between years of shit with continuity vs a new coach with a new gameplan and new players delivering some shit in the first half year. I hate losing as much as anyone, but judgement - or at least comparison -should come later.
The main problem is seemingly around mentality and leadership. We've got worse in 8 Tests and show little improvement. This is either down to the coaching or something deeper..
Which is it do you think?
@Victor-Meldrew I disagree with the premise, I think we've been all over the place but I don't think we've got worse from test to test.
30 minutes into the most recent test we were looking totally dominant and everyone was going 'ah yeah we're destroying them (but it's just the wallabies)'. The first half in SA was the best rugby I've seen from us this year. Argentina loss 2nd half was the worst. So I don't think there is any sort of consistent deterioration in performance - though there are certainly problems that are recurring and have not yet been solved.On field leadership I do think is a problem - we've lost Smith, Retallick and Whitelock - which really is a big deal. I don't think Scott Barrett is a great captain (or playing very well), I don't think TJ or BB are calm enough under pressure to be good leaders - and of course TJ and Cane are both in their last year.
Now of course the coach does choose the captain and the leadership group, but it's inarguably a lesser pool of leadership players that he has to draw from, and it's the young guys who have largely been leading the way with performance (Taylor the exception).Our selection and use of the bench has been shit - that's on the coach - and is a sizeable factor in the last 20 performance. Inexperience form the young guys, a lack of composure and leadership form the old guys, and trying to implement a new game plan under pressure (SA not Oz) and fatigue and subs means that last period of the game is the toughest to get right. To be fair, they are trying things - not the changes I would advocate, but I don't think it is being ignored.
Our kick chase and (lack of) protection for our kick receivers is the thing that grates on me as not being addressed.
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Anecdotally down the pub, at work etc - patience is wearing pretty thin with Robertson. I think this is directly related to how he was promoted as "the answer to all our problems"
Granted this is an Auckland vox pop but I haven't heard anyone complaining about not selecting Akira or Sotutu, more the dumb rugby that is being played .
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@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
This shifting goalposts argument was expected.
For the last four years, it was a shitty coach.
Now it is shitty players.
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@NTA said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
The AB's used to be about excellence, about trying to play the perfect game and chasing perfection in each moment of the game.
Under McCaw, they were about excellence.
After that, they were about experience.
As that eroded, they were about BBBB*.
Now that is on the downslide, what next?
*Beauden Barrett Bullshit Bounces
What next appears to be throwing the ball around furiously and hoping someone finds a gap.
@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
What next appears to be throwing the ball around furiously and hoping someone finds a gap.
I put that in the BBBB bucket.
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@Victor-Meldrew I disagree with the premise, I think we've been all over the place but I don't think we've got worse from test to test.
30 minutes into the most recent test we were looking totally dominant and everyone was going 'ah yeah we're destroying them (but it's just the wallabies)'. The first half in SA was the best rugby I've seen from us this year. Argentina loss 2nd half was the worst. So I don't think there is any sort of consistent deterioration in performance - though there are certainly problems that are recurring and have not yet been solved.On field leadership I do think is a problem - we've lost Smith, Retallick and Whitelock - which really is a big deal. I don't think Scott Barrett is a great captain (or playing very well), I don't think TJ or BB are calm enough under pressure to be good leaders - and of course TJ and Cane are both in their last year.
Now of course the coach does choose the captain and the leadership group, but it's inarguably a lesser pool of leadership players that he has to draw from, and it's the young guys who have largely been leading the way with performance (Taylor the exception).Our selection and use of the bench has been shit - that's on the coach - and is a sizeable factor in the last 20 performance. Inexperience form the young guys, a lack of composure and leadership form the old guys, and trying to implement a new game plan under pressure (SA not Oz) and fatigue and subs means that last period of the game is the toughest to get right. To be fair, they are trying things - not the changes I would advocate, but I don't think it is being ignored.
Our kick chase and (lack of) protection for our kick receivers is the thing that grates on me as not being addressed.
I would agree that its been a real mixed bag and agree with your points generally.
It's significant that Argentina put a record amount of points on us and we scored no tries in the second SA test. Comprehensive failure in defense and attack in different games.
So these two low points in both attack and in defense were never achieved by Foster.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
This shifting goalposts argument was expected.
For the last four years, it was a shitty coach.
Now it is shitty players.
@gt12 maybe its the realization the players arent upto it, whereas last year given Fozzies track record, it had to be him?
That said, I'm not convinced of either, I think Fozzie was better than he got credit for when you reflect on his time at the helm, I think Razor still has alot to learn, but he seems to be making some odd decisions, we always knew he was a bit more innovative and likely to (despite current evidence) take a few punts, but so far, like alot of Fozzies tenure, there appears no clear vision of the bigger picture.
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@gt12 maybe its the realization the players arent upto it, whereas last year given Fozzies track record, it had to be him?
That said, I'm not convinced of either, I think Fozzie was better than he got credit for when you reflect on his time at the helm, I think Razor still has alot to learn, but he seems to be making some odd decisions, we always knew he was a bit more innovative and likely to (despite current evidence) take a few punts, but so far, like alot of Fozzies tenure, there appears no clear vision of the bigger picture.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
I think Fozzie was better than he got credit for when you reflect on his time at the helm,
Wayne Smith really rated him. It stings, but it's true
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I'm interested in seeing two things before I throw my toys out of the cot:
- Patience and accuracy. In Bled 1 we tore the Aussies apart often in the first half where arguable decision making and poor execution prevented it from becoming a bloodbath. Admittedly this was against the Wobblies, but we have looked good on occasion against all opposition so hopefully there's a plan manifesting itself sporadically.
- Closing out games as the dominant team. We need to address the final quarter.
It's against the ninth ranked team, we're at home (even if it's Wellington) so there
shouldn't bearen't any excuses. -
I'm interested in seeing two things before I throw my toys out of the cot:
- Patience and accuracy. In Bled 1 we tore the Aussies apart often in the first half where arguable decision making and poor execution prevented it from becoming a bloodbath. Admittedly this was against the Wobblies, but we have looked good on occasion against all opposition so hopefully there's a plan manifesting itself sporadically.
- Closing out games as the dominant team. We need to address the final quarter.
It's against the ninth ranked team, we're at home (even if it's Wellington) so there
shouldn't bearen't any excuses.@antipodean 10th ranked now.
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I'm interested in seeing two things before I throw my toys out of the cot:
- Patience and accuracy. In Bled 1 we tore the Aussies apart often in the first half where arguable decision making and poor execution prevented it from becoming a bloodbath. Admittedly this was against the Wobblies, but we have looked good on occasion against all opposition so hopefully there's a plan manifesting itself sporadically.
- Closing out games as the dominant team. We need to address the final quarter.
It's against the ninth ranked team, we're at home (even if it's Wellington) so there
shouldn't bearen't any excuses.@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm interested in seeing two things before I throw my toys out of the cot:
- Patience and accuracy. In Bled 1 we tore the Aussies apart often in the first half where arguable decision making and poor execution prevented it from becoming a bloodbath. Admittedly this was against the Wobblies, but we have looked good on occasion against all opposition so hopefully there's a plan manifesting itself sporadically.
- Closing out games as the dominant team. We need to address the final quarter.
It's against the ninth ranked team, we're at home (even if it's Wellington) so there
shouldn't bearen't any excuses.We've been here before. Trying too hard, stuffing up chances on the last pass. We need to exhibit some control and some patience. Do the basics well
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The other option is to get a sacrificial lamb from one of the multitude of assistants to do a video critiquing the referees, assistants and TMOs we've had. Use that to whip up the lunatics on social media to threaten those referees, assistants and TMOs and their families. Having subjected them to vile abuse they'll subconsciously (?) favour us in an effort to not have to go through that experience again and we'll go back to dominating.
Pity Leon's already left.
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I have a question that one of the Hurricanes posters @canefan @Canes4life etc. might be able to shed some light on.
Who was responsible for coaching the attack off set-piece or first phases at the Hurricanes - was it only Blyeendaal or did Holland have some contribution as well? l know Blyeendaal had the title of attack/backs coach while Holland was the head coach, the reason I ask is because I've been looking through Hurricanes clips from 2021-2023 compared to 2016-2020 and there seems to be a noticeable difference in their strike moves around the period Blyeendaal joined the Canes, a bit more off the ball movement, deception and switch plays., I've heard that Blyeendaal is very highly rated and Leinster narrowed him down as the best candidate in their worldwide search for a new attack coach. So what input did Holland have into their attack? Did he oversee the unstructured attack while he was the head coach?
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@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
That’s not true.
When he first started out in super rugby, the crusaders weren’t stacked, they were full of players yet to make their mark. Mounga being a prime example and they had lost players such as McCaw,Carter.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
That’s not true.
When he first started out in super rugby, the crusaders weren’t stacked, they were full of players yet to make their mark. Mounga being a prime example and they had lost players such as McCaw,Carter.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
That’s not true.
When he first started out in super rugby, the crusaders weren’t stacked, they were full of players yet to make their mark. Mounga being a prime example and they had lost players such as McCaw,Carter.
He took over after the barren Todd Blackadder era didn't he?
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
That’s not true.
When he first started out in super rugby, the crusaders weren’t stacked, they were full of players yet to make their mark. Mounga being a prime example and they had lost players such as McCaw,Carter.
He took over after the barren Todd Blackadder era didn't he?
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
That’s not true.
When he first started out in super rugby, the crusaders weren’t stacked, they were full of players yet to make their mark. Mounga being a prime example and they had lost players such as McCaw,Carter.
He took over after the barren Todd Blackadder era didn't he?
Yes he did. They still had strong forwards but their backs were a mixed bag.
Expectations were low at the crusaders
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The other option is to get a sacrificial lamb from one of the multitude of assistants to do a video critiquing the referees, assistants and TMOs we've had. Use that to whip up the lunatics on social media to threaten those referees, assistants and TMOs and their families. Having subjected them to vile abuse they'll subconsciously (?) favour us in an effort to not have to go through that experience again and we'll go back to dominating.
Pity Leon's already left.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The other option is to get a sacrificial lamb from one of the multitude of assistants to do a video critiquing the referees, assistants and TMOs we've had. Use that to whip up the lunatics on social media to threaten those referees, assistants and TMOs and their families. Having subjected them to vile abuse they'll subconsciously (?) favour us in an effort to not have to go through that experience again and we'll go back to dominating.
Pity Leon's already left.
Seems no one is a fan of the South African approach. So we're left with better selection, coaching, leadership and execution.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2024:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks 2024:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2024:
@Landers92 yes, for Canterbury he has lots, and at the end of games for Crusaders he's finished there.
Razor in his Crusaders days said he had potential to be a great 12.
I don't rate him that highly.. but he's got a point of difference due to his physical dimensions, similar to a young Jordie - he's filled out a bit more now... also massive boot on the kid - and very long levers providing good offloading platform from 12.
It's not like he's not going to play but he's a good squad pick since he covers 11-15.
You’re drunk. He doesn’t play 12. He predominantly plays winger because he has never been able to nail down the 15 jersey, he’s even been kicked to the wing for Canterbury this year. Interested to hear your take on that one… You’re only kidding yourself by trying to justify him being pulled into the squad when there are multiple better players out there than him mate. End of.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350426610/crusaders-fullback-chay-fihaki-called-all-blacks-squad
Why are you sending this link? Theres no info in there that we didn’t already know…
@Landers92 highlighting that Chay not selected as a 12.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2024:
Going to be a long few years with these poor selections.
Curate's egg. Some selections have good - Ratima, Vaai, Sititi - while others have been meh. Not convinced by Blackadder and Reece for example.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2024:
Going to be a long few years with these poor selections.
Curate's egg. Some selections have good - Ratima, Vaai, Sititi - while others have been meh. Not convinced by Blackadder and Reece for example.
Again - those in top form in super rugby Vs those with fuck all form in super rugby. I wasn't completely focussed on the second half in the weekend - what have I missed that people think Reece is so bad?
