All Blacks 2024
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There is a lot of glass half empty comments on here, so I'm going to buck the trend of my entire life and be the half full bloke for once.
Granted, I've only seen the highlights on the weekend, but it was a 5 tries to one drubbing against a team that traditionally lifts against us. And for the first time this tournament, we did manage to score in the last 20. That was the most glaringly obvious problem through the first 5 rounds.
Reality is that we managed to match the Boks for a lot of the two games we played over there. This is the globally lauded team being spoken of in many circles as one of the best Bok teams ever. Yes, we lost 2-0, and we leaked far too many points for my liking, but we fronted up, showed that we have the players in place to build on & found a couple of potential long-term All Blacks as well.
The old guard is stuttering, but it's the year post WC and the old guard had to take on new leadership roles to replace the lost experience & caps. Having them in the team for a year to show the new boys how it's done from a team perspective is no bad thing. They may go EOYT, but Cane & TJ are clearly both done. Savea I think will be fine and I back him to bounce back. Beauden Barrett I think Robertson is a bit unsure how to use, and honestly speaking, I'm with him there. Is there a place for him in the team? Jury out. Scott Barrett hasn't been at his 2023 form, but he did take on the captaincy and the leadership that comes with it. Richie's first year as Captain was sub-standard as well.
First 5 is an issue, as although McKenzie hasn't done bad, he will always play as McKenzie (as he should) and I'm not sold that is world number 1 / championship winning style. He has more flair than almost all of the great flyhalfs, but doesn't, and never has had, the game controlling ability. If we want that flair, we have to accept that. I am somewhat surprised that Plummer didn't get given a shot, but realistically it could only have happened in Bled 2 and I guess Robertson wanted to see if BB still has it.
Backrow may be a bit messy, but Sititi has been found, thoughts on Savea are above. Blackadder has been ok, just not amazing, although I think this forum is really the only place where his amazeballs ability was generated (by some). Yes, I personally would have selected Sotutu & probably Ioane too, but the jury is out if either would have been as good as Sititi has been.
Jordan is looking like himself again, and Caleb Clarke had a decent run. Ratima did well and we've still got Roigard (in my view, our next Smith) to return. That just leaves the centres. Thats where the biggest issue lies for me. Jordie had a bang average run & I still think Rieko is better out wide. But ALB is solid, Procter didn't get much opportunities so the cupboard isn't bare.
Mentality is clearly the biggest problem as we often went from brilliant to headless chickens in the sheds at half time. That is what needs to be resolved, and some guidance from the professor will surely help out.
All in all, not a great RC, still came second though & never got dominated for an entire match.
Solid base to build on.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024:
Should Williams start?
No. EDG was a bit down on match sharpness, but the dynamic of him starting with Williams providing impact has worked well for the last couple of years.
Can lock in the starting front row with Williams, Newell and probably Aumua to come on off the bench. I liked what Tosi brought, but I think those big NH tests come too soon for him, and his weakness in the scrum could be exposed.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
. I liked what Tosi brought, but I think those big NH tests come too soon for him, and his weakness in the scrum could be exposed.
Not against England's shit scrummaging bench props.
Are Ireland's reserve props good at scrummaging? -
He still scored a try and won two turnovers which you conveniently ignore for your ineffectiveness claim.
Do you think 2.4 metres per carry isn't good? Sititi has 2.1 metres per carry for his AB's career so far.
I doubt Blackadder has won more than two turnovers his entire AB career. He hasn't scored any tries.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
He still scored a try and won two turnovers which you conveniently ignore for your ineffectiveness claim.
Do you think 2.4 metres per carry isn't good? Sititi has 2.1 metres per carry for his AB's career so far.
I doubt Blackadder has won more than two turnovers his entire AB career. He hasn't scored any tries.
Blackadder made two turnovers in Argentina 2. It's not his real strength, but I don't know why you'd mention him repeatedly in that facet when Dalton, Cane, Jacobson, Finau are all pretty mediocre at it too.
And try scoring... well you must not have thought much of the likes of Jerry Collins etc then eh?If you want to go by stats, then surely you should be advocating for Hoskins to get a run ahead of Ardie anyway - Super player of the year based on stats, and by some margin I reckon.
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He still scored a try and won two turnovers which you conveniently ignore for your ineffectiveness claim.
Do you think 2.4 metres per carry isn't good? Sititi has 2.1 metres per carry for his AB's career so far.
I doubt Blackadder has won more than two turnovers his entire AB career. He hasn't scored any tries.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
He still scored a try and won two turnovers which you conveniently ignore for your ineffectiveness claim.
Do you think 2.4 metres per carry isn't good? Sititi has 2.1 metres per carry for his AB's career so far.
I doubt Blackadder has won more than two turnovers his entire AB career. He hasn't scored any tries.
His try was fine - good backing up on the turnover. About 1min in here
But it gets rubbed out completely by his miss on Paisami for me.
The turnovers need to be taken in context - he attempts a STACK of them every game - at the expense of putting in a dominant tackle or counter-rucking. I think they cost us significantly on a net/net basis. I would so much rather he put in 3-4 hard shoulders into some prick running at us.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
He still scored a try and won two turnovers which you conveniently ignore for your ineffectiveness claim.
Do you think 2.4 metres per carry isn't good? Sititi has 2.1 metres per carry for his AB's career so far.
I doubt Blackadder has won more than two turnovers his entire AB career. He hasn't scored any tries.
His try was fine - good backing up on the turnover. About 1min in here
But it gets rubbed out completely by his miss on Paisami for me.
The turnovers need to be taken in context - he attempts a STACK of them every game - at the expense of putting in a dominant tackle or counter-rucking. I think they cost us significantly on a net/net basis. I would so much rather he put in 3-4 hard shoulders into some prick running at us.
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2024:
The turnovers need to be taken in context - he attempts a STACK of them every game - at the expense of putting in a dominant tackle or counter-rucking. I think they cost us significantly on a net/net basis. I would so much rather he put in 3-4 hard shoulders into some prick running at us.
Similar story with his ball running. He hangs off cleaning rucks to be in position to hit the ball up. There's a trade off.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
But I have to concur, Ioane's passing is at risk of being difficult and inaccurate. He seems slow to note others nearby and his instinct is still not to distribute. A shame, he was a tiger on defence (and so was ALB near the end of the game).
He's a weapon on the wing.
Sititi has a great ability to think and pass under pressure. Aware where others are.If we pick Hoskins as well our loosies will literally have better ball skills than our midfield.
If we go 6-2, Hoskins could probably cover midfield.
Before people drop their shit, I’m talking about in an emergency here.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
Assuming Sititi keeps progressing nicely, then by this time next year we could potentially build the loose forward trio around him. I think he will eventually move to 8, and IMO, to counteract that we need a huge blindside... Oli Haig will be in the NZ XV squad, and to me he looks like the obvious up and comer to balance it. That would give you room to play a defensive behemoth at 7... haven't looked at the stats close enough, but that could be Blackadder (please no), Papalii or Lakai. Savea then ready in 20 to come on for the last 25.
I think someone mentioned Sititi had played more 7 than 6? I think that might be his best spot for our combinations, as he's not physically that large. In fact he's small for an international 6 or 8, so if you play him in one of those spots - as you say - you need at least one other loosie to be genuinely big.
Locking someone in and that meaning other positions must have certain attributes is exactly what has been wrong with our loosies for the past few years. Cane was locked in at 7 and captain, even though Ardie was the better 7. That meant Ardie moved to 8, then he got locked in. That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit. Now we're even more shit, because two of them are still playing and they're both older and playing worse, our balance is still fucked so as a group they're getting outplayed on a weekly basis, and the only guy really killing it individually is a kid playing out of position.
I hope Haig is the next big thing, but to rely on someone that unproven for your balance is a huge stretch when NZ doesn't produce a lot of that style of player. Hoskins is my preference at 8 as he has dominated at super level and has international size. He lets you play Sititi / Lakai sized guys on the flank against the big teams because he is a genuine lineout forward, and a big lump. Hoskins won't play 80, but if you have Savea and Sititi in the mix then that's not a problem.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
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@gt12 I'm pretty sure Sotutu had to play in the backs for the Blues in the second half of a game at some stage this season.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@gt12 I'm pretty sure Sotutu had to play in the backs for the Blues in the second half of a game at some stage this season.
Yup the Canes game, where Taufa Funaki had to play on the wing.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
He still scored a try and won two turnovers which you conveniently ignore for your ineffectiveness claim.
Do you think 2.4 metres per carry isn't good? Sititi has 2.1 metres per carry for his AB's career so far.
I doubt Blackadder has won more than two turnovers his entire AB career. He hasn't scored any tries.
His try was fine - good backing up on the turnover. About 1min in here
But it gets rubbed out completely by his miss on Paisami for me.
The turnovers need to be taken in context - he attempts a STACK of them every game - at the expense of putting in a dominant tackle or counter-rucking. I think they cost us significantly on a net/net basis. I would so much rather he put in 3-4 hard shoulders into some prick running at us.
That's always been Savea's role at 8 - to look for turnovers. His role has never been a heavy hitter or a primary cleaner and it's not his strength.
You can't say he's been playing badly because he's not fulfilling what you believe should be the role of No 8. He's clearly not been picked for that type of No 8 role.
Personally I do think the the Kaino, McCaw and Read combo is the template and something we have the players in NZ to aim for in terms of a balance.
I do agree that Savea at 8 upsets the balance but I disagree he has been playing badly and I disagree he hasn't been delivering what he's been selected for.
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@gt12 I'm pretty sure Sotutu had to play in the backs for the Blues in the second half of a game at some stage this season.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@gt12 I'm pretty sure Sotutu had to play in the backs for the Blues in the second half of a game at some stage this season.
Yep, he went pretty well too.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
We lost when it counted, he was a non-entity in a game where we needed him to be huge.
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That's always been Savea's role at 8 - to look for turnovers. His role has never been a heavy hitter or a primary cleaner and it's not his strength.
You can't say he's been playing badly because he's not fulfilling what you believe should be the role of No 8. He's clearly not been picked for that type of No 8 role.
Personally I do think the the Kaino, McCaw and Read combo is the template and something we have the players in NZ to aim for in terms of a balance.
I do agree that Savea at 8 upsets the balance but I disagree he has been playing badly and I disagree he hasn't been delivering what he's been selected for.
@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
We lost when it counted, he was a non-entity in a game where we needed him to be huge.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
I don't think it is that harsh. Jacobson and Blackadder medium sized (and always injured). Scott Barrett and Tupou Vaai are locks - their selections at 6 are a symptom of the lack of big 6 options, not an argument that we had options.
Finau not ready and had one run in the game where Foster played a complete B team.So Frizzell, or Akira - neither of whom were ever consistently convincing.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
I don't think it is that harsh. Jacobson and Blackadder medium sized (and always injured). Scott Barrett and Tupou Vaai are locks - their selections at 6 are a symptom of the lack of big 6 options, not an argument that we had options.
Finau not ready and had one run in the game where Foster played a complete B team.So Frizzell, or Akira - neither of whom were ever consistently convincing.
Ioane was close to man of the match in Ireland 3.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
But I have to concur, Ioane's passing is at risk of being difficult and inaccurate. He seems slow to note others nearby and his instinct is still not to distribute. A shame, he was a tiger on defence (and so was ALB near the end of the game).
He's a weapon on the wing.
Sititi has a great ability to think and pass under pressure. Aware where others are.If we pick Hoskins as well our loosies will literally have better ball skills than our midfield.
If we go 6-2, Hoskins could probably cover midfield.
Before people drop their shit, I’m talking about in an emergency here.
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
But I have to concur, Ioane's passing is at risk of being difficult and inaccurate. He seems slow to note others nearby and his instinct is still not to distribute. A shame, he was a tiger on defence (and so was ALB near the end of the game).
He's a weapon on the wing.
Sititi has a great ability to think and pass under pressure. Aware where others are.If we pick Hoskins as well our loosies will literally have better ball skills than our midfield.
If we go 6-2, Hoskins could probably cover midfield.
Before people drop their shit, I’m talking about in an emergency here.
Jerry Collins shifted out to 12 in club footy. Sure, it was club footy but there's no reason why Ardie or Hos couldn't do that too as you said if and when required. They certainly have the speed and power.
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@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8.Have you noticed the style of loose forward pack Razor has generally played for the Crusaders?
Biggest guy has generally been Grace if available and he's not exactly big.
It's basically being replicated with the ABs. That's probably why everyone apart from Finau is basically a 7.
I'm happy for Savea to be tried at 7 or the bench but don't see it happening when he's vice captain and their mindset around the bench.
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Ioane was close to man of the match in Ireland 3.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Ioane was close to man of the match in Ireland 3.
That doesn't change the consistently convincing argument. Personally I think Ioane is another who suffered from the Cane/Savea combination. Akira is more of a wrestler (like Savea), and Cane is not a ball runner at all.
I think they preferred Frizzell because as a counterpoint he runs into contact, rather than going in soft and then driving the legs / wrestling his way forward like Savea and Ioane.
Frizzel was the epitome of inconsistency himself of course.
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