All Blacks 2024
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@gt12 I'm pretty sure Sotutu had to play in the backs for the Blues in the second half of a game at some stage this season.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@gt12 I'm pretty sure Sotutu had to play in the backs for the Blues in the second half of a game at some stage this season.
Yep, he went pretty well too.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
We lost when it counted, he was a non-entity in a game where we needed him to be huge.
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That's always been Savea's role at 8 - to look for turnovers. His role has never been a heavy hitter or a primary cleaner and it's not his strength.
You can't say he's been playing badly because he's not fulfilling what you believe should be the role of No 8. He's clearly not been picked for that type of No 8 role.
Personally I do think the the Kaino, McCaw and Read combo is the template and something we have the players in NZ to aim for in terms of a balance.
I do agree that Savea at 8 upsets the balance but I disagree he has been playing badly and I disagree he hasn't been delivering what he's been selected for.
@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
We lost when it counted, he was a non-entity in a game where we needed him to be huge.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
I don't think it is that harsh. Jacobson and Blackadder medium sized (and always injured). Scott Barrett and Tupou Vaai are locks - their selections at 6 are a symptom of the lack of big 6 options, not an argument that we had options.
Finau not ready and had one run in the game where Foster played a complete B team.So Frizzell, or Akira - neither of whom were ever consistently convincing.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
That meant we needed a big lineout blindside - so we got the underperforming Frizzell and no other options, and we were shit.
We had quite a few other guys who played at blindside - it seems a bit harsh to describe them as "no other options".
For example, here'a couple of interesting sequences of games along with the guy who started at blindside (and the result).
Ireland 2021, Dublin, Blackadder LOST
France 2021, Paris, Ioane LOST
Ireland, 2022, Auckland, SBarrett, WON
Ireland, 2022, Dunedin, Papalií LOST
Ireland 2022, Wellington, Ioane, LOST
South Africa 2022, Mbombela, Ioane, LOST
South Africa, 2022, Joburg, Frizell, WON (Fozzie keeps his job).Argentina, 2023, Mendoza, Frizell, WON
South Africa 2023, Auckland, Frizell, WON
Australia, Melbourne, Frizell, WON
Australia, Dunedin, Finau, WON
South Africa, Twickenham, Jacobson, LOST
France, Paris, Vaai, LOST
Namibia, Tolouse, Jacobson, WON
Italy, Lyon, Frizell, WONLittle known fact, we only lost three times with Frizell as our starting blindside (he started 26 times).
I don't think it is that harsh. Jacobson and Blackadder medium sized (and always injured). Scott Barrett and Tupou Vaai are locks - their selections at 6 are a symptom of the lack of big 6 options, not an argument that we had options.
Finau not ready and had one run in the game where Foster played a complete B team.So Frizzell, or Akira - neither of whom were ever consistently convincing.
Ioane was close to man of the match in Ireland 3.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
But I have to concur, Ioane's passing is at risk of being difficult and inaccurate. He seems slow to note others nearby and his instinct is still not to distribute. A shame, he was a tiger on defence (and so was ALB near the end of the game).
He's a weapon on the wing.
Sititi has a great ability to think and pass under pressure. Aware where others are.If we pick Hoskins as well our loosies will literally have better ball skills than our midfield.
If we go 6-2, Hoskins could probably cover midfield.
Before people drop their shit, I’m talking about in an emergency here.
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies 2:
But I have to concur, Ioane's passing is at risk of being difficult and inaccurate. He seems slow to note others nearby and his instinct is still not to distribute. A shame, he was a tiger on defence (and so was ALB near the end of the game).
He's a weapon on the wing.
Sititi has a great ability to think and pass under pressure. Aware where others are.If we pick Hoskins as well our loosies will literally have better ball skills than our midfield.
If we go 6-2, Hoskins could probably cover midfield.
Before people drop their shit, I’m talking about in an emergency here.
Jerry Collins shifted out to 12 in club footy. Sure, it was club footy but there's no reason why Ardie or Hos couldn't do that too as you said if and when required. They certainly have the speed and power.
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@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8.Have you noticed the style of loose forward pack Razor has generally played for the Crusaders?
Biggest guy has generally been Grace if available and he's not exactly big.
It's basically being replicated with the ABs. That's probably why everyone apart from Finau is basically a 7.
I'm happy for Savea to be tried at 7 or the bench but don't see it happening when he's vice captain and their mindset around the bench.
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Ioane was close to man of the match in Ireland 3.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Ioane was close to man of the match in Ireland 3.
That doesn't change the consistently convincing argument. Personally I think Ioane is another who suffered from the Cane/Savea combination. Akira is more of a wrestler (like Savea), and Cane is not a ball runner at all.
I think they preferred Frizzell because as a counterpoint he runs into contact, rather than going in soft and then driving the legs / wrestling his way forward like Savea and Ioane.
Frizzel was the epitome of inconsistency himself of course. -
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Ioane was close to man of the match in Ireland 3.
That doesn't change the consistently convincing argument. Personally I think Ioane is another who suffered from the Cane/Savea combination. Akira is more of a wrestler (like Savea), and Cane is not a ball runner at all.
I think they preferred Frizzell because as a counterpoint he runs into contact, rather than going in soft and then driving the legs / wrestling his way forward like Savea and Ioane.
Frizzel was the epitome of inconsistency himself of course.I agree that Ioane was inconsistent but I don't think he was terrible at any stage. He ranged from mediocre to great.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8.Have you noticed the style of loose forward pack Razor has generally played for the Crusaders?
Biggest guy has generally been Grace if available and he's not exactly big.
It's basically being replicated with the ABs. That's probably why everyone apart from Finau is basically a 7.
I'm happy for Savea to be tried at 7 or the bench but don't see it happening when he's vice captain and their mindset around the bench.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8.Have you noticed the style of loose forward pack Razor has generally played for the Crusaders?
Biggest guy has generally been Grace if available and he's not exactly big.
It's basically being replicated with the ABs. That's probably why everyone apart from Finau is basically a 7.
I'm happy for Savea to be tried at 7 or the bench but don't see it happening when he's vice captain and their mindset around the bench.
Hmmm, maybe. Had Read for the first few years. Whetu Douglas. Matera in 2022 a reasonably sized loosie.
Dominic Gardiner, Grace and Blackadder are in the medium category to me - all just a bit bigger than Cane, Dalton, Jacobson, Savea, Sititi.The Finau and no other similar player selection in the squad has always been a strange one for me.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8.Have you noticed the style of loose forward pack Razor has generally played for the Crusaders?
Biggest guy has generally been Grace if available and he's not exactly big.
It's basically being replicated with the ABs. That's probably why everyone apart from Finau is basically a 7.
I'm happy for Savea to be tried at 7 or the bench but don't see it happening when he's vice captain and their mindset around the bench.
Hmmm, maybe. Had Read for the first few years. Whetu Douglas. Matera in 2022 a reasonably sized loosie.
Dominic Gardiner, Grace and Blackadder are in the medium category to me - all just a bit bigger than Cane, Dalton, Jacobson, Savea, Sititi.The Finau and no other similar player selection in the squad has always been a strange one for me.
Douglas, Matera, Gardiner, and Blackadder are all big sized test 7's for me. I guess you could call them medium.
They're all around the 190cm 110kg mark.
The entire starting Blues loose forwards is bigger than that.
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@gt12 All those games counted.
He got dished a pretty bogus yellow card after 90 seconds, which probably hampered him a bit.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 All those games counted.
He got dished a pretty bogus yellow card after 90 seconds, which probably hampered him a bit.
Another way of describing it would be an avoidable yellow card and then did fuck all when he got back on the field.....
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I'll honestly be surprised if Sotutu makes the AB XV which is sad.
I think Haig has potential but anyone of Parker, Stodart, Finau, Ah Kuoi, Delaney, or Suafoa have just as much potential.
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'll honestly be surprised if Sotutu makes the AB XV which is sad.
I think Haig has potential but anyone of Parker, Stodart, Finau, Ah Kuoi, Delaney, or Suafoa have just as much potential.
A lot may come down to who is selecting the team. Is it Donk, or TWM or a combo?
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'll honestly be surprised if Sotutu makes the AB XV which is sad.
I think Haig has potential but anyone of Parker, Stodart, Finau, Ah Kuoi, Delaney, or Suafoa have just as much potential.
A lot may come down to who is selecting the team. Is it Donk, or TWM or a combo?
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
. I liked what Tosi brought, but I think those big NH tests come too soon for him, and his weakness in the scrum could be exposed.
Not against England's shit scrummaging bench props.
Are Ireland's reserve props good at scrummaging?@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
. I liked what Tosi brought, but I think those big NH tests come too soon for him, and his weakness in the scrum could be exposed.
Not against England's shit scrummaging bench props.
Are Ireland's reserve props good at scrummaging?Ever heard of a fella named Cian Healey?
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@voodoo said in All Blacks 2024:
The turnovers need to be taken in context - he attempts a STACK of them every game - at the expense of putting in a dominant tackle or counter-rucking. I think they cost us significantly on a net/net basis. I would so much rather he put in 3-4 hard shoulders into some prick running at us.
Similar story with his ball running. He hangs off cleaning rucks to be in position to hit the ball up. There's a trade off.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2024:
The turnovers need to be taken in context - he attempts a STACK of them every game - at the expense of putting in a dominant tackle or counter-rucking. I think they cost us significantly on a net/net basis. I would so much rather he put in 3-4 hard shoulders into some prick running at us.
Similar story with his ball running. He hangs off cleaning rucks to be in position to hit the ball up. There's a trade off.
And mauls.
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What's being missed a bit amongst the loose forward discussion is that Robertson has pretty explicitly said he basically sees no difference between the roles of a 6 and the roles of an 8 - they're interchangeable except when occasionally attacking off the back of a scrum.
