Italy v All Blacks
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@nostrildamus said in Italy v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think we agree there isn't much reason. Havili is a test 12, not a 13 or a 10, no longer a 15, and we have plenty of ex / part-time 15s.
Even that’s optimistic
@MN5 said in Italy v All Blacks:
@nostrildamus said in Italy v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think we agree there isn't much reason. Havili is a test 12, not a 13 or a 10, no longer a 15, and we have plenty of ex / part-time 15s.
Even that’s optimistic
Yeah I read it again and thought why was I so nice? I don't rate him at 12 either. When he started under Foster I saw the potential but I really don't think he has been good enough in any position he played in to get the selections he has - then again I am no AB coach.
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@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I have said this a number of times, I am not a fan of Havilii, but I can get his selection over Lam, at this stage. Lam has not had a lot of time in the midfield, and owing to the way the Blues played he has not had the chance to show he is a ball player. Next year if he plays midfield and gets to show he is at least the equal to Jordie as a passer, then yes, pick him. They'd be fools not to.
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@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I have said this a number of times, I am not a fan of Havilii, but I can get his selection over Lam, at this stage. Lam has not had a lot of time in the midfield, and owing to the way the Blues played he has not had the chance to show he is a ball player. Next year if he plays midfield and gets to show he is at least the equal to Jordie as a passer, then yes, pick him. They'd be fools not to.
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
Lam has not had a lot of time in the midfield
He's already had 22 first class starts in the midfield. Obviously he has shifted there late in games too.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
Lam has not had a lot of time in the midfield
He's already had 22 first class starts in the midfield. Obviously he has shifted there late in games too.
@Duluth said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
Lam has not had a lot of time in the midfield
He's already had 22 first class starts in the midfield. Obviously he has shifted there late in games too.
A few more than Sititi at 6
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Considering how troublesome finding a 6 has been, considering he isn't that big and plays at 8, throwing Sititi in there was inspired. Or ballsy. Or desperate. But well done him. I'm also on the Sititi as future AB captain bandwagon. Hope that isn't a jinx.
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@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I have said this a number of times, I am not a fan of Havilii, but I can get his selection over Lam, at this stage. Lam has not had a lot of time in the midfield, and owing to the way the Blues played he has not had the chance to show he is a ball player. Next year if he plays midfield and gets to show he is at least the equal to Jordie as a passer, then yes, pick him. They'd be fools not to.
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
I have said this a number of times, I am not a fan of Havilii, but I can get his selection over Lam, at this stage. Lam has not had a lot of time in the midfield, and owing to the way the Blues played he has not had the chance to show he is a ball player.
We don't have ball players in the midfield now. Lam has looked good in midfield for Blues (including 3 playoff games), a bad Auckland NPC team and an AB XV game.
I don't understand the fear at all.
Meanwhile how many games has Havili played at 13? I don't recall him playing there at all.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
I have said this a number of times, I am not a fan of Havilii, but I can get his selection over Lam, at this stage. Lam has not had a lot of time in the midfield, and owing to the way the Blues played he has not had the chance to show he is a ball player.
We don't have ball players in the midfield now. Lam has looked good in midfield for Blues (including 3 playoff games), a bad Auckland NPC team and an AB XV game.
I don't understand the fear at all.
Meanwhile how many games has Havili played at 13? I don't recall him playing there at all.
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
Meanwhile how many games has Havili played at 13? I don't recall him playing there at all.
It's a poor excuse to justify retaining a player who IMHO doesn't deserve to be there
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@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
Meanwhile how many games has Havili played at 13? I don't recall him playing there at all.
It's a poor excuse to justify retaining a player who IMHO doesn't deserve to be there
@canefan said in Italy v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
Meanwhile how many games has Havili played at 13? I don't recall him playing there at all.
It's a poor excuse to justify retaining a player who IMHO doesn't deserve to be there
Maybe, but it was an attempt to see their reasoning.
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@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think Havili was in the squad and Lam was added later. It would therefore be odd to promote Lam. The coaches also have to think of squad harmony etc. If you parachute players in and play them ahead of original squad picks, Qs will be asked.
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@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think Havili was in the squad and Lam was added later. It would therefore be odd to promote Lam. The coaches also have to think of squad harmony etc. If you parachute players in and play them ahead of original squad picks, Qs will be asked.
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think Havili was in the squad and Lam was added later. It would therefore be odd to promote Lam. The coaches also have to think of squad harmony etc. If you parachute players in and play them ahead of original squad picks, Qs will be asked.
Questions like, why did you pick a below average AB instead of someone who has been much better? Yeah terrible questions, might show how bloody awful their picks have mostly been
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@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think Havili was in the squad and Lam was added later. It would therefore be odd to promote Lam. The coaches also have to think of squad harmony etc. If you parachute players in and play them ahead of original squad picks, Qs will be asked.
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think Havili was in the squad and Lam was added later. It would therefore be odd to promote Lam. The coaches also have to think of squad harmony etc. If you parachute players in and play them ahead of original squad picks, Qs will be asked.
That would be rather two faced. Very Foster like.
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Considering how troublesome finding a 6 has been, considering he isn't that big and plays at 8, throwing Sititi in there was inspired. Or ballsy. Or desperate. But well done him. I'm also on the Sititi as future AB captain bandwagon. Hope that isn't a jinx.
@nostrildamus said in Italy v All Blacks:
Considering how troublesome finding a 6 has been, considering he isn't that big and plays at 8, throwing Sititi in there was inspired. Or ballsy. Or desperate. But well done him. I'm also on the Sititi as future AB captain bandwagon. Hope that isn't a jinx.
Settle. Let’s just see him continue to play well before putting those expectations round his neck
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@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
I have said this a number of times, I am not a fan of Havilii, but I can get his selection over Lam, at this stage. Lam has not had a lot of time in the midfield, and owing to the way the Blues played he has not had the chance to show he is a ball player.
We don't have ball players in the midfield now. Lam has looked good in midfield for Blues (including 3 playoff games), a bad Auckland NPC team and an AB XV game.
I don't understand the fear at all.
Meanwhile how many games has Havili played at 13? I don't recall him playing there at all.
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
Meanwhile how many games has Havili played at 13? I don't recall him playing there at
Good question, I wondered if he had to replace a 13 off the bench once, but I could not find it in stats
https://all.rugby/player/david-haviliBut I do recall reading somewhere they saw him as a replacement at 13? Maybe it is just my poor memory.
But I don't see how he deserved selection over Lam. I suspect Razor is not so much conservative as loyal, but that isn't a good reason to pick him over Lam (who could be a backup winger, we did not have that many wingers, and wingers in good form).
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@nostrildamus said in Italy v All Blacks:
Considering how troublesome finding a 6 has been, considering he isn't that big and plays at 8, throwing Sititi in there was inspired. Or ballsy. Or desperate. But well done him. I'm also on the Sititi as future AB captain bandwagon. Hope that isn't a jinx.
Settle. Let’s just see him continue to play well before putting those expectations round his neck
@MN5 said in Italy v All Blacks:
Settle. Let’s just see him continue to play well before putting those expectations round his neck
I said they should pick Darry, I was the first to name Blackadder "Niggles" and hazarded he'd live up to his nickname. I predicted what would happen if they brought back and played Havili, I said BB isn't in great form and has lost pace and probably confidence, and isn't, probably, our best 10 at getting the backline flowing. I'd even, during the RWC, said they had to bring in Roigard.
Apart from that chequered past, I'm doing my best to live up to the Fern statement:"Awful analysis, incorrect conclusions, zero insight
Wrong about pretty much everything"Let my previous post be read in that light.
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@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think Havili was in the squad and Lam was added later. It would therefore be odd to promote Lam. The coaches also have to think of squad harmony etc. If you parachute players in and play them ahead of original squad picks, Qs will be asked.
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think Havili was in the squad and Lam was added later. It would therefore be odd to promote Lam. The coaches also have to think of squad harmony etc. If you parachute players in and play them ahead of original squad picks, Qs will be asked.
Like implying you will be parachuting a 10 who has been playing offshore for 3 years you mean?
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@canefan said in Italy v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
Meanwhile how many games has Havili played at 13? I don't recall him playing there at all.
It's a poor excuse to justify retaining a player who IMHO doesn't deserve to be there
Maybe, but it was an attempt to see their reasoning.
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
@canefan said in Italy v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Crazy-Horse said in Italy v All Blacks:
Meanwhile how many games has Havili played at 13? I don't recall him playing there at all.
It's a poor excuse to justify retaining a player who IMHO doesn't deserve to be there
Maybe, but it was an attempt to see their reasoning.
Not having a dig at you mate, just poking a hole in Razor's probable reasoning
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@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think Havili was in the squad and Lam was added later. It would therefore be odd to promote Lam. The coaches also have to think of squad harmony etc. If you parachute players in and play them ahead of original squad picks, Qs will be asked.
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
@KiwiMurph said in Italy v All Blacks:
@Billy-Tell said in Italy v All Blacks:
I don’t have such a problem with Havili on the bench. But it does my head in that it’s not
10 McKenzie
15 Love
22 Perofeta (or swap with Love)And the argument for Havili over Lam in the 23 jersey for this hypothetical backline would be what exactly? Given the 3 players above all cover 10 and 15?
I think Havili was in the squad and Lam was added later. It would therefore be odd to promote Lam. The coaches also have to think of squad harmony etc. If you parachute players in and play them ahead of original squad picks, Qs will be asked.
So Havili shows no form all year - gets picked on reputation (both as injury cover in July and then in the main squad for The Rugby Championship and End Of Year Tour) - shows nothing in the tests he does play this year - but because of squad harmony Havili must be picked ahead of Lam who has forced his way into the squad on form.
What kind of squad culture is that?
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How do the other players feel about the selections of Blackadder, Havili, and Fihaki? Do they feel, as some of us feel, that some players receive special treatment and others don't? How do they feel about seemingly getting selected based on strong SR form only to not be given a chance in any meaningful games or games against tier 1 opposition? I guess Plummer made his feelings known by signing to play in France. I expect Sotutu to do the same soon. If Razor doesn't start managing the ABs as a meritocracy the greater the risk that we lose more valuable players
